David: Karen, I am thinking of two words that sound alike. They both start with the letter C, they rhyme. Their meanings are different, however. Let’s see if we can define them. The first is consolation. As in the story found in Luke chapter 2 about righteous and devout old Simeon, who was, “looking for the consolation of Israel.”

Karen: Okay, well let’s unpack that. To console would be to comfort someone, attempt to offer them ease in grief or pain. And so I think this Luke passage is about a difficult time in the history of the Jewish people. They were living under the hard heel of imperial Rome. And old Simeon was looking for the one who could console or comfort the Jewish people.

David: Very good.

Karen: That’s the long promised Messiah or the Deliverer. This is a thing that runs through the Old and the New Testament. And I believe the passage that you cited states that the Holy Spirit had revealed to Simeon that he wouldn’t die until he had seen with his own eyes his nation’s promised Messiah. My goodness, what a promise.

David: You’re right on target as far as the passage.

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

Karen: This passage that we refer to in Luke 2 tells us that old Simeon took the Christ child from Joseph and Mary and Simeon held him in his arms and praised God saying, and remember this is an old man who’s had a promise long ago. Listen to these words. “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you’ve prepared in the sight of all people a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.”

David: Well, that’s the first C word. Consolation. Age Simeon was looking for the consolation of Israel. Now here’s the second C word that rhymes with consolation. It’s culmination.

Karen: Culmination and consolation. Ok, we got it.

David: Culmination is a story writer’s word, Karen. You want to take a poke at it?

Karen: Oh, Ok. Let me think about it a little bit. All right. So I’ve written three books that are imaginative literature called Tales of the Kingdom, Tales of the Resistance and Tales of the Restoration. So the culmination in a writer’s work as they’re telling a story is when everything that the themes of the story and the progress of the story and the action of the story lead to. And then all of a sudden it all comes together. You know, this is why. This is the result of this is.

David: It all makes sense.

Karen: It all makes sense. And generally everyone who’s been in the novel or the fiction piece or the story have a part of that understanding of the revealing of this culmination.

David: Would it be a synonym be climax? I think that’s.

Karen: Climax might be that. But I think climax is sort of the peak idea where this is more tying all the ends together. It’s a little more dramatic and fulsome, I think.

David: Very soon we will celebrate Christmas, which is about the birth of the Christ child, the son of God. Is this the culmination or the climax of the Christ story?

Karen: Well, when we’re in the season of Christmas, it’s easy to think that it is. Though we know, you know, it’s the birth of the baby.

David: It’s a huge, huge answer. I mean, to have God.

Karen: Take on the human form. Become flesh.

David: Take on human form. And then not go through the normal birthing arrangement where you have a man and a woman.

Karen: Yeah. Now, the interesting thing about Advent, which is the season in the church calendar that leads up to Christmas, is those who are in liturgical churches understand that Advent is the season of looking to the first coming of Christ, which is the Christmas story. But it also has a longer, deeper, more broad meaning, and that is looking forward to the second coming of Christ, the second coming that’s promised in Scripture as well.

David: Ok, let’s say that we agree that Christmas or the birth of Jesus is not the end of the story.

Karen: Not the culmination.

David: No, it’s not the culmination. Some people would say the crucifixion. Everything centers on the cross.

Karen: Or they might combine the crucifixion and the resurrection together, those two acts as being the culmination of the story of Christ or God’s work in history. Or I don’t know how they would phrase it exactly, but we don’t feel that’s the culmination of the Christ story. Is that what we’re saying here? We’re working toward.

David: I would agree. Old Anna, she’s another aged person in this story, and Luca, she spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Israel. That word redemption is to redeem something. You buy it back and the purchase price for our redemption was the blood of Jesus. But again, the crucifixion is not the culmination or the climax of the whole story, but then you mentioned the resurrection. That’s kind of a climax.

Karen: It’s huge. Absolutely huge. I mean, it shook history and time and the earth as well.

David: Yeah, sure. It did.

Karen: But in the whole long range, the whole overarching story of Jesus.

David: We have not come to the culmination yet. Okay, so we’ve looked at the birth and crucifixion, the resurrection. Let’s try the ascension to see. That’s a big one. Acts one. “This same Jesus who has been taken from you to heaven will come back in the same way you’ve seen him go into heaven.” That reminds me of Revelation where it says, “Look, he’s coming with the clouds and every eye will see him.” How about that? Is that the culmination?

Karen: Well, it’s an extraordinary event. And it’s part of the story of Christ being here on earth and it has power in it, but it is not the culmination.

David: We haven’t found it yet. Some people would say the rapture.

Karen: Yes. When Christ comes in again.

David: When he comes, yeah, that’s a little bit controversial subject, so I won’t go into it any more than to say.

Karen: Controversial, theologically different camps. Yeah.

David: That’s again, a highly important something we look forward to when Christ returns, but is that going to be the culmination? Probably not. I’m thinking maybe just to stop for a second, Karen, Tolkien wrote the trilogy of the Ring.

Karen: Lord of the Rings.

David: Lord of the Rings, that’s right. Massive, massive work.

Karen: Well, it actually is considered one of the master works of Western literature by people who have no theological inclination whatsoever. We had a son who used to read the Lord of the Rings, all three volumes every year, you know, so impacting to him.

David: I haven’t read it every year, but I remember the first time I read it and I’ve read through it again, which is quite an accomplishment. But what if I read the first book and said that is really an incredible book?

Karen: It’s a great book, but you didn’t read the second book?

David: What if? You didn’t read the third book? I obviously did, but what if I hadn’t? In fact, I remember my eyes being so tired, I just couldn’t stop. I couldn’t put the books down. But book one is not the end of the story. It doesn’t even take it to the climax or the culmination of what is going on or book two. You want to see the whole thing.

Karen: Yeah, what happens? I think it would be very hard just to read one book or book two of Lord of the Rings. There probably are people who have.

David: So we have this story. Just say it’s not over until little Frodo the Hobbit, the guy with the little Harry Feet.

Karen: Harry Feet who starts is introduced in the first book by Tolkien.

David: Yeah, and he has this ring of power.

Karen: Ring of power.

David: Which the enemy wants.

Karern: Sauron, the great enemy, the satanic figure in Tolkien’s.

David: A little Frodo and his crew, they have to toss that ring into the cracks of doom as I recall.

Karen: Because then they destroy Sauron’s power. But if he gets the ring, if he is able to capture the ring, he takes power into himself and has power over Middle-Earth. I mean, it is a dramatic story, but you really do go on the trip with them. Tolkien writes it such a way that you almost walk every step.

David: When you reach the culmination, have you ended the story? There’s still story that goes on. But it’s just an outworking of what we know is going to happen.

Karen: Casting the ring into that crack is the culmination of the Lord of the Rings.

David: So, we’re almost saying the same kind of thing when you look through the scriptures. What is the culmination of the Christ story as it unfolds in scripture? There’s a showdown battle that needs to come. In fact, before that showdown battle is fought out here on planet Earth, there is the revealing of the Antichrist or the Man of Sin. It will not be that Jesus comes until that individual has been revealed. At least if I’m reading the writings of Saint Paul, this is 2 Thessalonians 2-3. “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs. And the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.” That day meaning the return of Christ.

“The man who is doomed to destruction, he will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or his worship so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

Karen: It’s chilling.

David: Under this evil reign, there will be terrible, terrible destruction.

Karen: All across the Earth.

David: In fact, when you get into the book of Revelation, you’re aware of just the massive, massive destruction that goes on under this Man of Sin and his minions. Okay? So, we’re saying that’s certainly not the end of the story. It is not the culmination. DavidIt’s not what we’re talking about, the culmination of it all yet. There needs to be the reign of Christ on planet Earth.

Karen: Now this, I think, is the culmination.

David: : Yeah, that really sounds good.

Karen: Let’s paint that picture a little clearer because I don’t think that we modern Christians hold this much in our heart. Partly you think, well, I’m not going to be around when that happens. You know, so you discredit it as being impacting for your own life. But it is everything that the Old and New Testament in many ways is pointing toward. First, the coming of the Messiah.

David: Okay, let me just read a little of that from Revelation. “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse whose rider is called faithful and true.” This is in Revelation 19. “With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire. And on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He’s dressed in a robe dipped in blood. And his name is the word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh, he has this name written, ‘King of Kings and Lord of Lords’.” Doesn’t sound like the same Jesus in the Gospels even does it. But now he’s going to set everything right and it’s very exciting.

Karen: Right and we can let our imaginations roam as far as what that rule on earth will be like. Injustice will be conquered. Truth will prevail. Love for God and your fellow human.

David: Well, you can imagine the world under the reign of Jesus. You know now there are those exciting stories of you know Jesus saying the disciples “When I set up my kingdom you will rule under me. You who have followed me,” those 12 apostles were incredible.

Karen: I think the martyrs have a role in all of this as well.

David: There’s an actual passage. I’ll look it up if you’ll just give me a second where it says they come back to life and maybe all of us who are believers but at least it’s talking in terms of the martyrs. It’s very exciting passage. Okay. “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” That gives you the goosebumps. So anyway, this is a glorious time when the earth is going to be like it’s supposed to be.

Karen: Yeah. We start to the original design.

David: Yeah. There are people everywhere they have enough. The incredible abundance of this world God has made. It’s enough to feed everybody but the way men have lived on this earth has made it very fortunate for certain people and very unfortunate for other people but there will be justice. I don’t think, Karen, even in that kingdom as Christ reigns over the earth that sin will be done away with. I think people will still they will still be selfish or they will still want their way and so on but the rule over them will be a rule of peace and a rule of fairness and justice.

Karen: A model of righteousness and an expectation and a moral code that people understand and has been established by this King Jesus.

David: There will be this rejoicing all through the earth and that’s the culmination. That’s where it’s all headed. I would like to be there. I mean that would be something that would really be beautiful. It’s kind of a mystery whether or not I’ll be able to be there. I’m just you know knowing that it’s a possibility.

Karen: You need to get your head cut off or something before that.

David: Well, I could be a martyr.

Karen: You know we’re saying that in a facetious way but David there is a martyrdom among Christians going on around the world. So, we’re not feeling it here in the States as much as those folk are feeling it.

David: It’s almost a preparatory time.

Karen: A preparatory time. Yeah.

David: The ultimate battle and the reign of Christ. You know this is something though that we almost remind ourselves of on a continuing basis.

Karen: So, what we’re asking people to do is to consider how to make this appropriate in their life so that they are living with the reminder that this is the culmination of time in history and that we are looking forward to that. And maybe even reminding ourselves that it’s coming as part of the prayer life that we take on. I mean think of the Lord’s Prayer.

David: Well, that’s one of the greatest ways and it’s a way Jesus provided so we would not forget what we’re talking about.

Karen: Our Father who art in heaven.

David: Hallowed be thy name.

Karen: So that’s the address. And right after the address comes your kingdom come or thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Now we pray this so much in many of our churches. Some churches don’t use it at all but I pray it almost every day and in liturgical churches it’s part of the liturgy. And every time I get to thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I just choke up there’s something in my soul that grabs. I want that so much. I want to live in that place and in that time where that’s a truth or that’s a reality.

David: I think it is not only the Lord’s Prayer and I agree with you it’s a prayer that I pray very consistently time after time in my life even when I’m driving the car. I say, “Lord I just want to say Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” You know what’s happening in heaven. I want it to happen here on earth as well. That’s a beautiful thing. Another thing that helps us with this understanding in my mind is the hymnology of the church. Let’s just give simple examples. It’s so easy to sing words to hymns or to contemporary songs and not really know what we’re saying because we don’t know the words until they actually come out.

Karen: In front of me we still have hymnals that a lot of people use overhead screens. A lot of churches don’t use these old hymns which I think is a lack and a loss because oftentimes they include theology that is not as contemporary to our times. We need to be reminded of it. The choruses in that.

David: Not saying one is right.

Karen: No. I think the praise choruses and worship choruses are wonderful but these hymns were songs of theology.

David: I’ll give one just from the normal hymn. You give one related to the Christmas season. This is Jesus show rain where the sun. I’m not sure who wrote this.

Karen: I think it was Isaac Watts.

David: You know I think you’re right.

Karen: We’ll look at it afterward and you’ll probably be right. Yeah I think it was Isaac Watts.

David: “Jesus shall reign where air the sun does its successive journeys run. His kingdom stretch from shore to shore till moon shall wax and wane no more. For him shall endless prayer be made and praises throng to crown his head. His name like fragrance sweet shall rise with every morning sacrifice. People in realms of every tongue.” I love that phrase. “People in realms of every tongue dwell on his love with sweet song and infant voices shall proclaim their early blessings on his name. Blessings abound where air he rains. The prisoners leap to loose their chains. The weary find eternal rest and all who suffer want are blessed.” Fabulous words aren’t they? Last verse. “Let every creature rise and bring the honors due our glorious King. Angels descend with songs again and earth repeat the long amen.”

Karen: Well, I found one that is often sung in the Christmas season. I wish I was musical. This tune is so familiar. “Come thou long expected Jesus born to set thy people free. From our fears and sins release us. Let us find our rest in thee. Israel’s strength and consolation. Hope of all the earth thou art. Dear desire of every nation. Joy of every longing heart. Born thy people to deliver. Born a child and yet a king. Born to reign in us forever. Now thy gracious kingdom bring. By thy own eternal spirit rule in all our hearts alone. By thine own sufficient merit raise us to thy glorious throne. By thy own sufficient merit raise us to thy glorious throne.”

David: Yeah it’s wonderful.

Karen: Beautiful.

David: It’s wonderful again. One of the things that needs to be done and this is something you addressed along with your loving husband. The kingdom thoughts and of Jesus reigning need to be passed down from generation to generation. This is from the first of the three books that we wrote together. The Tales of the Kingdom is the name and I’m just reading a little of how we tried to do that in terms of these stories that we put together.

He was relieved with their conversation. This is hero.

Karen: He’s the hero. Yeah he’s a young boy. Filled with doubt.

David: And a lot of troubles in his background. An orphan as well. And he’s talking with Amanda.

Karen: Who is the spunky princess?

David: Yeah.

Karen: She’s the princess who kills the dragon.

David: She knows everything and he knows very little. He was relieved when their conversation was interrupted by a cry. It echoed through the woods. “’How goes the world?’ An answer came back. ‘The world goes not well.’ Then another answer. ‘The kingdom comes.’ ‘That’s the watch cry,’ Amanda explained. ‘It goes from tower to tower. The Rangers keep watch. They guard the park against burners and naysayers. They also look for lame things in fire in the forest and they protect the outcast. Their hearts are brave and full of courage,’ said Amanda as she started walking toward the practice field. ‘Wait, wait,’ Hero explained. ‘I don’t understand. I don’t understand anything.’ Amanda stopped. Dandles of hair were already loosened from her braid. Some of the wildflowers had fallen. ‘What is a kingdom? The kingdom of what? Where is the kingdom?’ Amanda’s jaw dropped. She laughed in surprise. ‘Boy, that’s the first rule of great park. A kingdom is any place where the king rules.’ The boy felt stupid. The answer seemed obvious, but he still didn’t understand. ‘I thought this was a park.’ ‘Of course it is. It’s great park and the kingdom is in it. This is where the king rules in exile. But the kingdom is not only here. It’s anywhere the king is in Isle Bade. Someday the king’s rule will be restored in Enchanted City and everywhere. That’s why we call out ’To the king! To the restoration!’

Anyway, just a short little section.

Karen: Those books were written 40 years ago. We were living very much in a longing for the kingdom even then for that culmination to happen, weren’t we?

David: Yeah, it’s still in your heart?

Karen: Yeah, yeah, very much. So more so now than I think ever. I mean, we will as we age.

David: We’re kind of like old aged Simeon and Anna except for we’re married. And these are things we want to talk about as much as we can before we go.

Outgo: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all lowercase letters, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2020 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois, 60187.