David: The topic we’ll dialogue about today is a bit tricky to deal with, for us anyway.

Karen: Particularly for us. Now the problem is not that it’s complicated, it’s just that it hits a bit closer to home here than we would like.

David: Even so, we’re going to attempt to give it our best shot.

Karen: So stick with us, okay, listener?

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go podcast featuring Dr. David Mainz and his wife, noted author Karen Mainz. Here’s David and Karen Mainz.

David: So I’ll open up at the very beginning and tell you exactly what it is we’re talking about. The topic is procrastinating. 

Karen: Stalling. 

David: Yeah, dragging your feet.

Karen: Putting things off until tomorrow.

David: I think we could go on with a lot of different words. A task should be done in a timely manner. That’s the opposite of procrastinating, doing something in a timely manner, and especially if God is prompting you to do something. Now Karen, I tried everything to find a scripture about procrastination.

Karen: That would say, “don’t procrastinate.”

David: Yeah, I have these massive concordances with all the words in the Bible and I was just blanked.

Karen: They didn’t use the word “procrastinating.”

David: No, it didn’t. And then I thought, what about illustrations? And then I finally came up with one, but this is a doozy. I’ll tell you. 

Karen: It’s right out of scripture. 

David: I want you to read it with me. And when we’re done, we might say we should have left that chapter alone. I say it’s a chapter, not quite a total chapter. This is Genesis chapter 19 and about the first maybe two-thirds of the chapter. I should say the chapter 18, Karen, is about Abraham.

Karen: Right. He’s bargaining with the Lord.

David: Yeah, he’s concerned about Sodom because his nephew Lot is there.

Karen: And God has said he’s going to destroy that unrighteous city. Abraham says, “Well, if there are 50 righteous people…” 

David: And that starts the bidding. Eventually Abraham gets it all the way down to 10 people. God will spare the city, but apparently there weren’t 10 because now we’re going to pick up in chapter 19, this story of procrastination. You’ll pick that up as we read through it. Okay, Karen, I think you’re going to start. All right.

Karen: The two angels of the Lord arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

David: “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

Karen: “No,” they answered, “we’ll spend the night in the square.”

David: But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

Karen: Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom, both young and old, surrounded the house and they called out to Lot.

David: “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Karen: Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said,

David: “No, my wicked friends, don’t do this thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you and you can do what you would like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” He knows, Karen, that these are holy men. They’re angels or whatever, but they’re not just usual visitors, okay?

Karen: Well, yeah, it’s also an issue of hospitality here and disdain for the women of the world.

David: Yeah, leave that one alone, okay?

Karen: “Get out of our way,” 

David: …they replied. And they said, 

Karen: “This fellow came here as an alien and now he wants to play the judge. We’ll treat you worse than them.”

David: They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moving forward to break down the door.

Karen: But the men inside reached out, pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, both young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

David: The two men said to Lot,

Karen: “Do you have anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

David: So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city.”

Karen: But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

David: With the coming of the dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying,

Karen: “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

David: When he hesitated, the men grabbed his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives!

Karen: Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain. Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away.” But Lot said to them… 

David: “No, my lords, please! Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains. This disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. Look, here’s a town near enough to run to, and it’s small. Let me flee to it. It’s very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

Karen: He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too. I will not overthrow the town you speak of, but flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” That’s why the town was called Zoar. Which means small. By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land.

David: Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities and also the vegetation in the land.

Karen: But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

David: Early the next morning, Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Karen: So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

David: Well, looking for an illustration of procrastination, I got a lot with that passage. That lives in your mind. You see those two representatives from God, they’re called angels, I guess, saying, “Don’t hesitate.” “Come right now.” 

Karen: I remember a lot of sermons on this when I was growing up, so preachers must have used it. One of the great scriptures on, “Don’t procrastinate. Don’t look back.”

David: Yeah, you’re laughing, but it’s very much the point we’re making. This is not the time to dally. I’m putting it in this context, Karen, that when God speaks to you, now that could be saying, “Stop it right now,” or it could be, “Do this, it’s important. I need your help.” That’s not the time to dilly-dally. Okay, that’s the time to move forward.

Karen: What’s interesting, I think as we’ve been talking about this and sort of we always say, how does this work in our own lives? There are those times when you really hear “no,” and a lot of them have to do with the moral values that Judeo-Christian faith has incorporated. And those are basically condensed or summarized in the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not.” So those are easier to… many people break those commandments in a variety of ways. And of course, Jesus emphasized that it wasn’t just the legality of doing the law, it was also doing the Ten Commandments with your spirit and intention. But it’s easier when there’s a moral framework that’s that definite. It’s easier to say, “We’re not supposed to do this. We’re not supposed to break this commandment.” Although some of us fudge with some of those things. I mean, countless stories of people who’ve been sexually attracted and have broken the commandment that, “You shall not commit adultery.” But it’s harder to ascertain when we’re told not to do something, when it comes as an interior voice that’s not…

David: Or we’re told to do something.

Karen: Or we’re told to do something. An interior voice or an interior nudge, however you attempt to describe it, that says, “Don’t do this,” when there isn’t a moral basis for not doing it. And so that means that we have to develop a capacity of hearing and being really ready to know when we should obey those words or when they just come from our own reluctance. “We don’t want to do this task.” That’s our own problem, but it’s not coming from a holy nudge.

David: It’s harder, but there are times, Karen, when you know God has said something to your heart. I think early on in my ministry, there was this tug to go into the inner city. All the churches were fleeing. It was the white flight. 

Karen: Yeah, called white flight because the neighborhoods were all changing. And so churches were closing. And one of the reasons they were closing was because the white population was moving to other places or going to the suburbs.

David: Yeah, the churches, we’re talking about church buildings, were closing. Yeah. But I had this definite sense that God had said, “I want you to move into the inner city of Chicago in this situation and start a church.” Plant a church, I guess. Yeah, it was deep inside. I couldn’t miss it. In fact, I had an offer. I was an assistant pastor at a good-sized church in the suburbs and I had an offer to go to a church in downstate Illinois, but I could not do it.

Karen: And it was a very successful church in downstate Illinois.

David: Yes, it was. Because I knew the Lord had said to me, “You are to go into the city.” Because… I don’t want to get into that sidetrack. What is this? You have kind of a rule of thumb that you use when there’s that nudging to do something that you think God wants you to do.

Karen: Yeah, because it is hard to tell sometimes and I’m an idea person, as you know. I’m…

David: Not a question about that. You have more ideas than any 10 people could fill.

Karen: So we have to discriminate here.

David: Decide what’s from the Lord and what’s from your head.

Karen: Karen’s. Yeah. So I asked the Lord to verify when I feel like there’s an inner nudge. And I actually have something I’m working with right as we’re making this podcast. I’ll talk about it a little bit. Let me give you the formula. I’ll ask the Lord to verify this inner nudge. And often that inner nudge does come out of reading scripture or a wakeful moment in the middle of the night. I usually wake about 2:00 or 2:30 and then I spend that time in prayer and listening. And I hear a great many things that I have to sort out.

David: It could be as mundane though, an affirmation as a phone call from someone.

Karen: It could start there. Someone says something and I begin to think I should be doing that. So then I ask for verification. And generally two to three other verifications will come. There’ll be someone else who says, “Karen, why don’t you…?” or a book I read and I think, “Oh, that’s what I thought the Lord was…” I mean, it doesn’t matter. And sometimes they’re extraordinary. There’s a letter in the mail that says, “I was praying for you and the Lord seemed to lay you on my heart,” and they know right away that’s what they’re talking about is the thing that God has asked me to do. So those verifications are great as far as…

David: Let me just insert something, all right? Excuse me for interrupting, but you have been saying something to me as far as the Lord putting it on your heart and I’ve been kind of poo-pooing it.

Karen: Yeah, you haven’t jumped on my hurrah team.

David: And I’ve said, “We don’t have the money to do that,” and so on, and then lo and behold…

Karen: And by the way, remember you’re 78 years of age. Okay, so let me say what it is so we don’t leave people. I feel like there needs to be a national platform that’s established where we use the digital mechanisms to put up a platform that emphasizes hospitality.

David: Especially Christian hospitality.

Karen: Christian hospitality, and that I need to invite all kinds of practitioners. There are all kinds of hospitality. We have a family who is working with disabled children. It’s the most moving thing I’ve seen in a long time. 

David: And that’s hospitality. 

Karen: And many of these children are children who are fostered. And it’s not just the parents our age or younger, a little bit younger than us, who are doing this, but their offspring are doing it as well. So it’s just an incredible story.

David: But to put up this national, what did you call it? 

Karen: A platform.

David: A platform that requires people and it requires funds.

Karen: But then it would be… there’s a terminology for it. It’s a wiki platform that people can write about what they’re doing in hospitality and then post it under the special categories that we design. But in order to do this, I have to have a team. We have a very part-time staff person at the Mainstay Ministries and you and myself, and that’s it.

David: It’s a good team.

Karen: It’s a good team, but you know…

David: For somebody who’s 84? 

Karen: For this idea, whoa. 

David: That’s why I say, “Karen, it’s too much. Just leave it alone.”

Karen: Yeah, leave it alone. You were less than spectacularly supportive.

David: And then, lo and behold…

Karen: Lo and behold. You have friends in the world beside me. I have about 10 people who said, “That’s a fabulous idea. We want to be part of it and help you launch it.” But it’s going to take some funds and some know-how, some technological know-how to get it up on websites and whatever. So I opened a letter from a friend who I’ve known since we went to church together probably 30 years ago. Great guy. He actually worked at Fermilab, so he’s a…

David: Fermilab is the…

Karen: Nuclear laboratory, yeah, nearby us. So he’s a physicist. Opened the letter and here was a check for $4,000. I have a little division of Mainstay Ministries called Hungry Souls and it was made out to Hungry Souls.

David: So I couldn’t get my hands on it.

Karen: You couldn’t touch it. And so I said, “Praise the Lord.” Well, I have all the people who think it’s a good idea. There’s about 10 of those. Then this check from my dear friend, the physicist.

David: Okay, now we’ve gotten sidetracked from procrastination, but it’s a good reminder.

Karen: But those are the ways that… 

David: God says, “Okay, I said it, now I said it again.” Yeah. “Don’t you reckon? I just said it again.” 

Karen: So you should feel assured that even at your age, 78 years of age, this is a calling I’ve given to you in a way that you are to serve Christ and His kingdom. And so let’s get going, Mains. Don’t stall on it. Don’t take your husband’s reluctance at this.

David: I’m hearing you. We’re talking about procrastination. So you’re saying don’t stall. It does connect. I agree. 

Karen: There are ways when you feel a nudge to test it to see if this is something that you should do.

David: I have another story.

Karen: Wait, wait, wait. And when you decide that it is something you should do, you better get going on it. You do not want to procrastinate. 

David: Be expeditious. 

Karen: That’s the thing. Stop rolling. Be expeditious. Go ahead. You got a story. 

David: When I was growing up, and I’m thinking junior high age, I was raised in downstate Illinois in Quincy, which is right on the Mississippi. I had a Sunday school teacher. He was a good man. I remember some of the lessons. I can picture the setting. We actually met in the sanctuary where the pews were. And you know, he would sit on the back of the pew and teach us. There were probably five in the class. Just in God’s providence, some years later, I was an adult and he was now an older gentleman. I met him. And I don’t even remember what the reason was that we got a chance to talk together. And I respected him. And he told me of land he owned that he couldn’t work anymore, which was rich topsoil land right on the Mississippi River.

Karen: Is that called bottom land?

David: I think so. And he had a lot of acres.

Karen: Okay. Very rich.

David: I don’t know… I don’t know why, I said to him, and I knew that he didn’t have any children. I said to him, “Have you thought about when you pass on as to what will happen to that land?” And he kind of evaded it. And I don’t know why, but I pressed him again. It wasn’t for me. 

Karen: He did not have an ulterior motive about it. 

David: I didn’t at all. But it was like I was prompted. And then Karen, it wasn’t that long, I’m guessing it was probably a month or so after that, I heard that he died.

Karen: Oh my goodness.

David: Yeah, it was unbelievable. And he somehow was attached to that land, and not that it was worth so much, it’s just that that was a part of his identity. “I have this many acres right on the Mississippi River.” And I thought to myself, “You know, the Lord was pushing me,” because I’m not a pushy person. But at the same time, there was something happening there and his response made me sense that he was hearing something that he didn’t want to hear. But it was interesting. And I think there are oftentimes situations like that where God is saying to someone, “I’m speaking to you very clearly now, respond,” whether it’s, “Don’t do this,” or, “Do this.” And to him, I think it was, “Do this.”

Karen: I have a wonderful story that my sister told me. Valerie Bell, my sister, is the CEO of Awana Clubs Ministries.

David: Yes.

Karen: Of course, Awana goes all around the world. It’s an extraordinary children’s program of Bible memorization and games and…

David: Oh, it’s worldwide.

Karen: It’s worldwide. But she was on the board and the board asked her to step in as CEO. And she’s taken over at a time when they were really in financial duress. In fact, they had to sell their big, beautiful building. I mean, she’s chosen to do that. But she said, “Oh, I wanted to tell you, we had a huge big gift come through.” And there wasn’t enough to cover the debt they have, but it was a huge step toward that and it was a million dollars.

David: Wow. That’s a lot of money.

Karen: A lot of money. And I said, “What in the world happened?” And she said, “I do not know what happened, but there was a little old lady and she said, ‘I am sitting on this million dollars and it’s not doing any good for anyone. So I think that your ministry where you’re developing the next generation is worthy of the gift.’” And she sent it. But that’s the way a lot of people need to be thinking, frankly, not just in terms of their dollars and cents, but in terms of their gifts and their abilities. If God asks you to do it, then you need to be doing it.

David: When God puts something on your heart, be as expeditious as possible. Don’t procrastinate. That’s basically what we’re saying. And I have a sense, Karen, when the Lord puts some of these topics on our hearts, we’re to move ahead with this. This is one I’ve been playing with. I was saying, “We should talk about it,” and I think, “No, I don’t know.” And then I thought, “Yes, I think we should.” And I think we’re timely in the sense that someone listening to us is hearing this as friends who say the Lord is nudging you. And now is the time. It may not relate to money in any way, but it’s related to an activity, either to stop this, or more likely, “Here’s something I’ve been talking to you about for a long time and I need you to do it.” I have this nudge going on in my own life as far as a book is concerned. Writing a book is a painful, long process.

Karen: And you’ve done quite a few in your life.

David: So, I haven’t done anywhere as many as you have. You’re in the 20s. I’m probably approaching 10. But you write the whole book and you’re thinking all the time, “I’m going to do all this work and I won’t get it published. And on top of that, nobody’s going to read it.” That’s the thinking that is there.

Karen: Yeah, put it off. Don’t do it.

David: Yeah, it’s the old dilly-dally.

Karen: Yeah, right.

David: Figure out anything else you could do, even if it’s a hard thing, it gives you a better excuse, but procrastinate. Well, anyway, that’s not what we’re supposed to do if we’re following the nudgings of the Lord. I have memories. I don’t know if it’s the story I told before, but I have memories of church when I was a young boy growing up and ministers telling tales, not lies, but illustrations is a better way.

Karen: You can remember a lot of their illustrations.

David: Yeah, I can. It’s interesting. Yeah. And while I was working on this topic, I don’t remember who said it, but I remember a preacher. It was a visiting preacher who came and he told the story of demons.

Karen: A conversation between demons, sort of like C.S. Lewis’s approach.

David: Yeah, it was bigger than that, though. He was talking about a demon convention where they were going to figure out the best way to keep people from becoming followers of Jesus.

Karen: Why am I laughing? Yeah.

David: Well, he was serious. He said that one demon said, “You get people to doubt the resurrection. And once they doubt that, all the rest crumbles.” You know, and then another demon who thought he knew quite a bit…

Karen: He had another plan.

David: …he said, “Get them to doubt the Bible.” But they went on all these different stories as to what to do to keep people from becoming a part of the kingdom. Then an old demon in the back, he was one who was worldly wise, he’d been around for a good while. He got up and he said, “You’re all wrong.” He says, “Tell them the Bible’s true. It doesn’t matter. They’re going to find out sooner or later the great value of this book. Tell them that Jesus rose from the dead and that was the most triumphant thing that ever happened in the history of the world. And when you’re all done, you say, ‘You should also become a follower of Jesus. Do it tomorrow.’” That was his strategy. Do it tomorrow. Do it tomorrow. Isn’t that funny? That’s registered in my mind for a long time.

Karen: Very timely words, however.

David: Well, it’s very possible that somebody hearing us and me in terms of, “I got to go back. I got to finish that book,” you know, because the Lord’s speaking to me even through my own words. Don’t do it tomorrow. Do it today. Yeah. Now, doing a book takes a good number of todays to get it done. But basically it’s saying expedite what God asks you to do.

Karen: What’s our sentence again?

David: Well, that’s the exact sentence that I was saying. When God lays something on your heart, be as expeditious as possible. Don’t procrastinate. We said at the very beginning it’s a little bit personal. I hear the Lord speaking to me. You hear the Lord speaking to me. 

Karen: I do. And I think that there were probably people listening to us to whom this has been the word of the Lord. Okay. So don’t do it tomorrow. Begin it today.

David: Yeah. Move along. Just like those two angels grabbing at our arms. “Come on. I know what the Lord’s going to do.” Let’s get out of here.

Outro: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address: hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all lowercase letters: hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.