David: Some words can be seen as both good or bad depending on the situation. Take for example the word diversion. If someone is workaholic, a diversion like gardening or bird watching could be a very good thing.

Karen: It’s interesting, but a diversion could also be a bad thing if it temporarily robs the focus of someone who’s pushing hard to get a major project done. So, if you are already under a tight deadline, don’t start on a major home repair project or don’t volunteer to head up the junior high department at your church if you’re trying to get something else done.

David: Yeah, that diversion is going to kill you.

Karen: You know, honey, sometimes I think we do this because the projects that we’ve chosen are so hard and we have a reluctance to get into them. I know when I’m trying to write a book, get a book started, that getting it going is the hardest part. It’s not going to get writing it. That’s not the problem. It’s getting going. So, I think that’s a lot of why people look for diversions or are attracted by diversions.

David: Yeah, well, it helps you procrastinate.

Karen: Yeah, right. It’s part of that process.

David: This visit we want to talk about diverging streams, exploring alternative tributaries, and most of all, making sure you stay on target.

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David: Karen, for a lot of men, sports are a diversion.

Karen: You think?

David: Yeah, that could be good or bad. It could be good. It could be bad, depending probably on the hours and hours involved. Coronavirus, however, has not only restricted play in many cases, it’s cut out the opportunity to watch.

Karen: So as the baseball season over? I haven’t really been following this. No surprise.

David: It’s hardly started. It’s kind of funny. It’s not the same if you watch it. First of all, you don’t know if there’s going to be a game. You can’t go to the game.

Karen: So, are they actually showing some games without crowds?

David: They show them on television and they try to pipe in the noise.

Karen: Is this where someone put pictures up in the seats?

David: They’ve done that in certain places. Yeah.

Karen: I think they I’ve heard them taping in crowd noises to something.

David: They do their best at that in a lot of different situations. Basketball, not sure where that’s going to go. Football, I know they’ve canceled some of the seasons for the college football, which is huge.

Karen: College football is almost, my impression, is almost bigger than the national.

David: The pros?

Karen: Yeah.

David: Depends on who you talk with, I guess. But they’re both massive in terms of where the pro season is going to go. All of this, again, is kind of up in the air.

Karen: So is this an Olympics year?

David: 2020 is an Olympic year. It was to be in Tokyo but that was canceled and it’s to be next year. And if it’s not next year, because of the coronavirus, then they’re going to cancel the games altogether.

Karen: Okay. So I think we are in a situation because of the coronavirus where there are massive diversions. Massive diversions from the way that we have normally been able to live.

David: Yeah, even bowling. You know, bowling. You don’t have that many spectators in a bowling, but they have to be so far apart from one another and you know, again, it’s not the same. Once you take out the response of the spectators, I don’t care whether it’s golf or whatever.

Karen: It seems to me like the PGA tournament was on. I don’t follow any sports.

David: You know what PGA stands for?

Karen: Something golf association.

David: That’s good.

Karen: Did I come close?

David: Professional.

Karen: Professional. Of course, I could have figured that out. Okay, now let me just give myself a little bit of a boost here. I do not follow the local teams unless they’re in a win cycle and unless we go into playoffs. At that point, you become an avid follower. But we’re not even going to have that this year.

David: Now you’re a fair-weather fan.

Karen: I am a fair-weather fan. Right. But I do pick up, you know, you’ll say so and so in swimming or that was a fabulous game. And sometimes I’ll sit down and watch an inning or two, whatever is going on or quarter.

David: It’s a different situation right now. Even swimming, Karen, people, they close the beaches here in our home area, which is Chicago.

Karen: It’s not so much swimming. It was the overcrowding on the beaches that they were not able to do social distancing.

David: Whatever the cause, you don’t go swimming the way you used to. You’re not a sports person, Karen. So let’s leave that alone for a little while. What is it that kind of is your diversion when you want to just get out of this intense mood of writing.

Karen: Or when I’m tired, which usually starts the fatigue usually starts about three in the afternoon because I usually up by four at least. Early riser.

David: Early riser.

Karen: Well, I love a good story. And I am probably semi addicted.

David: Well, you’re talking about movies?

Karen: Movies. I don’t watch television as much as I will get movies on prime or on Netflix. And I love to watch the storyline. I’m a sucker for good stories. Even a sentimental story. I’m a sucker for good. But let me explain some of the reason for that. I’m not defending myself, but just saying we have one son who is graduated with his degree in film. So, he and I just these extraordinary conversations on the narrative arc, on the way characters are developed. And one one film I just saw recently was Peanut Butter Falcon. And I love these stories of odd people who find one another in the dignity they give to one another. It’s about a down syndrome young man and his very sort of anti-social companion. And they find one another in this amazing way, in the sweetness of this relationship is so beautiful. I love stories like that.

David: Well, that’s fine. And that can be a diversion for you.

Karen: It is a diversion.

David: And it also can be a problem. But it also should be said that this also has taken a major hit. You can’t go to the movie theater to watch something.

Karen: Something new that’s coming out that you really want to see. So I think America is the land normally of limitless diversions, limitless diversions. But the coronavirus is slowly shutting down many of these options. And we’ve mentioned a whole bunch of them.

David: Well, let’s talk about some of these things. I think it’s made television very different. It’s not the same watching television when people aren’t in the same room.

Karen: When headliners are in their homes. First, it was a little attractive. And then but then you don’t have the response of the audience. You don’t have the vitality that happens with a television set.

David: A certain time delay, right? That falls up people. Theater theaters are closed down.

Karen: And we love we love theater. We’ve been Shakespeare fans and gone up to the Stratford Festival in Canada all for, you know, years, decades, really, and that’s out this season.

David: Other diversionary things that have shut down – travel. You can’t go on a cruise ship. But yeah, it’s a you can’t fly into many countries because of the coronavirus. Shopping. Shopping is a diversion for a lot of people.

Karen: I’m not much of a shopper, but I think a lot of people will spend an afternoon or an evening just shopping whether they buy things or not. It’s part of, you know, part of their diversion tactic.

David: Okay, let’s put into a sentence what it is we’re attempting to communicate here. As the American stream of limitless diversions is temporarily slowing down, we’re saying why not explore an alternative tributary?

Karen: So we want people to think about a little mountain stream. See this in your mind because it will help you understand what we’re saying. The bubble’s down a mountain and you’ve sort of followed the track of that stream. It’s a lot of walks that you’ve taken with friends or family. But there’s always been this little stream that diverts off of the mainstream. We call them tributaries and you’ve never really followed it. And someday someone says, “Oh, why don’t we go and see where that goes?”

David: The one stream slowing down a bit.

Karen: “Yeah, the big stream is kind of slowing down in this little tributary stills bubbling along. Let’s see where it takes us. And we can always come back if we get lost or it takes us where we don’t want to go. But let’s see what that’s all about.”

David: Okay, let me give the sentence again and then we’ll begin to comment on it. As the American stream of limitless diversions is temporarily slowing down, why not explore an alternative tributary? Let’s just talk about that stream of limitless diversions. Okay, that’s America, right? It’s huge in America. You can find all kinds of diversions that will occupy hours and hours and hours of your time. In fact, I’m thinking about in Scripture, see if you can come up with a Scripture. It’s hard sometimes, but I’m thinking about Solomon and him trying every possible angle in life as he gets older. And at the end of that time, basically saying, you remember what his phrase is? Chasing after the wind.

Karen: Yeah, chasing after the wind.

David: You never catch it. It’s a very sad picture.

Karen: Well, Second Timothy has the scripture and I think that this has really addressed to Christian people and that’s who we’re talking to today as well. And so we’re talking about a topic that’s come up because of the coronavirus, but it’s a topic that needs to be addressed and we need to examine and re-examine it in our life all the time. In the last days, people will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

David: Okay, that’s Second Timothy. Say it again.

Karen: In the last days, people will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God having a form of godliness but denying its powers. This is a scripture that should hit us between the eyes because we have an opportunity with this coronavirus to do self-examination. To say, have I in this banquet of diversionary pleasures that is generally afforded to the American public, have I become a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God? What is first in my mind? Is it to love him, to worship him, to serve him with my whole being, to be able to look back on my life and say to myself, “I did give to him the best of what I had to advance his cause and the cause of the kingdom, to be a lover of God and a lover of people in the world.” Can we really say that or has our time here on earth, the human hours that have been given to us been spent in the pursuit of pleasure?

David: Let’s explore some of those opportunities in terms of the alternative tributaries.

Karen: The little streams that are going off the big stream path. Because the big stream in our analogy is being blocked up. It’s not going anywhere now.

David: Well, it’s still moving along but it’s definitely been slowed down.

Karen: Truncated, right.

David: We’re going to go back now to what people will say, yes, sounds like ministry, families again. You guys always talk about, but one of those streams is scripture. What we can learn from scripture. I want to look at this in a little bit different way. The Bible is a very tough book. If you just say to people, read scripture, that’s hard to do. There are whole major sections of the Bible that quite frankly are difficult to understand and as a result are boring to people. If you look at the Old Testament.

Karen: Or puzzling to people, could be puzzling too.

David: Look at the Old Testament and the prophets. They’re rough books to read.

Karen: Maybe you don’t want to start with the prophets.

David: Well, the major or the minor, either one of those. The Proverbs. If you just don’t read it, you get more than what you expected. Just so many little thoughts one after another. I would say if we’re talking about scripture, I’m going to make a suggestion that two books, if you haven’t been in scripture for a while, if you want to look at the Old Testament, I would suggest the book of Ruth, which is an interesting storyline. It’s a story about a woman. A woman with very difficult problems in terms of her life and what happens as she follows the way of God. Ruth is not a long book, but it’s a good book and it will keep your interest.

Another book that I would suggest you look at in terms of the Old Testament would be the book of Esther. A kind of a suspense story in a way, but again with a very definite lesson to it or lessons that you can come up with. So, I would say those would be two really good Old Testament books to look at. Look at the New Testament. What would you suggest?

Karen: Let me just say one thing about those two books. They’re inclusive. I mean, the stories, it has a narrative arc. So, you have a beginning and a crisis and a middle and then a resolution. Well, we all love that. People love stories. So, if you’re having difficulty getting into scripture, this is good advice. Begin with some of the books that have that narrative arc because it carries you through. And then one of the questions we need to learn to ask ourselves when we’re reading scriptures that were written in another age or centuries ago, is to say, “What does this have to say to us today? What does this have to say to me today?” So we’re not just reading it. We’re reading it and then considering how it applies to our daily living, our contemporary living, our modern times.

David: I’ll let you come up with a suggestion from the New Testament. All right. And I’m all set. If you don’t do very well, I have a suggestion of my own.

Karen: Glad it takes the pressure out of me. Well, recently, I’ve just been looking at the words of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus. I want to fall in love with him in a fresh way spiritually again. So, I thought, well, I’m just going to look at the things that he taught. And of course, a major portion of his teaching was given in the Sermon of the Mount. It’s a compilation, I think, of all the messages he was giving out. His disciples walked alongside him as they met people, as he healed people. There were these saints. And then there was a time when folk gathered to hear him. I think there were thousands gathered to hear him speak on the Mount of Olives.

David: Just to insert it, that’s in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, the Sermon on the Mount.

Karen: So then I’ve been just taking out the things in the Sermon of the Mount that strike me and writing them down in my journal. I have a prayer journal that I’ve kept for, I don’t know, 30 years. And one of the things I noticed was it’s very moving to me in the light of the coronavirus, what the coronavirus has revealed nationally, that the people who are most impacted by this in the worst of ways, the groups that are dying the most from it or getting ill are the poor, the powerless, the outcasts, the immigrant communities. And I think Jesus wanted us to be tenderhearted.

I think he wanted his followers to have a focus on those folk that the rest of the world overlooked or misused or very often the wealthy create wealth out of taking these kinds of groups in large masses, taking advantage of them.

David: Yeah, there’s no question. That’s a part of what Jesus talks about.

Karen: I’ve really been struck by that and I think that it’s because of the conversation that, of course, that’s going on. As far as the coronavirus and the groups that are suffering the most in the states, it is good to be reminded that one of the measurements of our following Christ and how well we’re doing is do we have a heart for those population groups? Are we seeking to help? Are we seeking to empower them? I was on the board of a World Faith Organization that had a remarkable methodology that had developed of empowering people who were in poverty all around the world and changed whole communities. They changed themselves with these tools. So, I’m very sensitive to that, but I’m seeing again that this is a major part of Jesus’ message to his followers.

David: Okay, that’s a good suggestion from the New Testament, the Sermon on the Mount. Here’s just a couple of others. A longer suggestion for the New Testament. If you read a Gospel by Luke and he also writes a second book in the New Testament, which is the story of Acts or the New Testament Church. So, if you want a longer assignment, it’ll go over a period of time. You can look at Luke and Acts. I think another possibility would be there are two epistles by Peter. Those are relatively easy books to look at. And Peter is a character, is the writer. You understand who he is pretty well. Because there are some of the epistles or letters that are in the New Testament that in my mind are very difficult for a new person to just go to and say, “Oh, I got that. That makes sense.” They’re confusing parts of them.

Karen: You need a Bible scholar to help you with this or people who’ve written those kinds of books, a Bible commentary.

David: Yeah, I’m just trying to say if you haven’t been in scripture for a long time, here are some options to consider that will get you started anyway. Let’s look at another one of those diversionary streams and that would be the area of prayer. And I’m going to make what in my mind is a very elementary suggestion, but a lot of people haven’t taken up on what I’m going to say. And that is one of the best ways to learn how to pray is to pray with someone else. It doesn’t have to be a saint. Hopefully you’re going to pray with someone who has at least a little bit of experience with prayer. But I find that praying with other people is a huge stimulation to me in terms of my own prayer life, listening to how they word their prayers. I don’t necessarily copy, but over the course of my lifetime, I recall copying people as they prayed. I thought that was really helpful what that person said. Let me see if it sounds okay in terms of the way I pray.

Karen: And you’ve had a weekly noontime Wednesday prayer meeting by phone.

David: Yes, there are eight of us.

Karen: Eight of you and you’re from all over the country. And I think you’re the one who knew everyone and have sort of invited different ones to be a part of it, but the rest of them have not met one another except through this prayer time.

David: That’s a fair statement. A couple of them know a little bit. In fact, one gentleman went out of his way to meet with another man in his travels because he wanted to see what this person was like, whose voice he heard week after week praying. So, there are nice little stories that are unfolding in relationship.

Karen: Well, I love your prayer time, even though I’m not a part of it, because when I say to you, “How did it go today?” You just always say, “I just felt so much the presence of the Lord.” I’ve never had you say, “That was a waste of time.” You never felt that way.

David: No, no, I don’t feel that way at all.

Karen: And you do remark on how one person in particular has a gift of prayer. I mean, truly a gift of prayer. I’m not sure what that’s even called intercession, perhaps. I don’t know a praise worship, but you say that he never prays the same thing.

David: I don’t think any of the people within the group, you never think, “Oh, that’s almost exactly like what he said or she said, you know, two weeks ago.” It’s not that at all, even though we have a focus in our prayer. But again, the point I’m making is that if you want to grow in prayer, somehow you have to be exposed to how people who are good prayers pray.

Karen: Well, and I then I think the accountability of that, it’s so easy for our schedules to I mean, I’m hearing what you’re saying and thinking, ok, I need to get something like this started. I did have a covenant group that met for 17 years monthly and that’s broken up because people have moved, but I’ve not replaced it at all. And I think I need to be doing that. So the holding one another accountable just because the meeting happens, then you do do it. You don’t just think about doing it.

David: Let me make another suggestion. And people are going to say, “Ok, I know what you’re like all of them.” You just say, “Pray and read the Bible.” Well, we say, “Pray and read the Bible and do good deeds because that’s another area where I’m going to make a suggestion.” If you want to explore one of those diversionary areas outside of the mainstream of just entertainment, this is such a simple illustration.

Karen: And particularly when this coronavirus, it’s hard to know what we can do for people with the social distancing requirements. My natural bend is just to invite everyone over for a meal and time together. And I can’t do that anymore. I can do it in the backyard. So we are being curtailed. I need to find that tributary, that stream that diverges off of what my norm is.

David: One of the best cookie companies in the world in my mind is Cheryl’s.

Karen: And you are a cookie expert. If there was ever a cookie expert. Tell about Cheryl’s cookies.

David: Well, usually when you order cookies and I tend to do it because of my grandchildren, I’m too old to try to figure out what they want. So, I send a box of cookies.

Karen: Yeah, I’m sure it’s all grandchildren inside it.

David: Now I’m coming to the better part. After you make your order, they always say on the line, “Now Dr. Mains, we have a special going on and you can get a box of two dozen cookies for it.” Oh man, they don’t even have to get it.

Karen: Half price for an additional box of cookies.

David: If you buy a certain amount, you get a discount and then it means you get that extra box of cookies for about half price. That’s exactly what happens. So, I always, I always do the extra boxes. Sometimes boxes, plural.

Karen: Now let me explain that all the cookies, Cheryl’s cookies, there’s a variety that come in the box and they have their own little individual packages. So, they’re individually packaged. That’s actually the part of the point of why this works.

David: Well, once the box comes, I don’t eat all of the cookies. I eat some of them.

Karen: I think you sample each category. You can eat the raisin and oatmeal.

David: Let’s just say my youngest granddaughter is Annalise. She’s what, nine?

Karen: She’s about nine, yeah. Adobrable. Of course, every grandparent feels that way about the grandchildren.

David: She will go with me on our cookie route. So, I will say, “Shall we go with the cookie box today?” We’ll go to the dry cleaners and we’ll go to the gas station.

Karen: You are basically running errands with them and then yeah. Get a cookie dropped too.

David: So we go to the bank. Go to the Post Office and she will go in with me.

Karen: She’ll have a little face mask up. Everyone has their facemask on.

David: Say that little speech that she, “Would you like a special cookie today?” And people, they’re not gonna turn her down

Karen: Or anyone really. Too cute.

David: That usually they say, “Oh, that’s so nice.” And then they look for the cookies and having their choice. All these different kinda cookies, in fact, the UPS guy who’s the older guy, he’s a little bit grumpy, he says that “Well these are the best cookies in the world.” Annalise smiles. They always pick the best ones too which are the big icing cookies but that’s alright you know I’ve had more than in my share in my lifetime. But just do something good. Do something gracious. That’s a part of following Jesus and bringing joy into the world. In fact Karen I usually will ask Annalise after our cookie runs. I’ll say, “How did it make you feel?” And she says, “Oh it makes me feel really good.” That’s part of doing kind things for others makes us feel very good.

Karen: And and I’ve seen the studies on this that we do we have a flush when we do something good for people and particularly if we’re not expecting them to do something in return. It’s truly an altruistic gift so if you want to give yourself a little boost you know the most selfish thing you can do is take care to of or tend to or do a cookie run with some of the people in your world and just see what kind of responses. What I love is that you don’t do this to gain favor. But when I go with you, let’s say we’re dropping into the post office or and you’ve got stuff to take off, the intimacy of friendship that has developed. I mean we don’t you don’t have time to learn about their lives or anything like that but there is this connection.

David: Yes that’s a good word connection.

Karen: They’re so glad to see you and the welcome that you were given. I mean, you know, it can be tedious to have these lines of people, stinking of stuff in the mail and stamping them and getting the addresses and all that sort of stuff day after day after day. So, it’s broken by these little acts of kindness and they’re just lovely, lovely to you everywhere you go, it’s just a beautiful, beautiful thing to see.

David: This is that picture that we’re going to of the stream that is almost limitless opportunities is drying up just a little bit and we say that doesn’t mean that life comes to an end because there’s no alternative stream.

Karen: There’s another tributary that you need to discover and find and say, “Let’s go this way let’s see what this does.”

David: And again we’re describing that and it could sound very blasé to people, heard a million times. But scripture can be one of those one of those avenues.

Karen: And diversion. A new kind of exercise in prayer you know. I think that I’m taking away from this every time we talk about this I think I need to get a prayer group started for myself not just for myself but I need to be a part of one and one of the things I’m doing are using the zoom app to teach memoir writing courses. And I have started a couple listening groups I do listening groups we’ve talked about that in the podcast before but I’m doing it over zoom. So I think we could easily set up a prayer call just say who would ever like to join me on certain time on Thursdays because there are people from all over the country who are a part of these small groups and just see what who steps up and what lessons we have to learn from one another and share with one another. I think it’d be extraordinary time.

David: You’re forgetting obviously that we’ve been into a new prayer routine with some of the older grandchildren for a period of several weeks now.

Karen: Yes that’s been lovely.

David: Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Karen: So we were doing zoom calls just to connect and so it’s gone on for a month or so every week and then all of a sudden it took a turn because you and I realized it wasn’t enough just to chit chat and catch up and laugh and tell jokes. this was an extraordinary opportunity to do spiritual mentoring. And so we began to talk about the attributes of God and what our attributes and that there are a limited number of them that the hymn makers praise God for. And one of the great spiritual exercises in our lives we’ve discovered is when we begin to define more broadly what God is like. And perhaps to contemporize our understanding, one of the things we talked about is God has this wonderful sense of humor and he loves when his children laugh as we love it when our children laugh. And so sometimes the gifts that he gives to us are totally surprising and often very funny. So you know you don’t get that in class of that’s heavy on theology but you do get it in out of the conversation of life experience. So that’s the way those zoom calls are turning and I think it was just very meaningful to all of us.

David: Well it’s led us to a place where once a week any of the grandchildren or their spouses can join us for a time of prayer if they want to and that’s been really very special.

Karen: And if no one shows up we just you and I use the time just to pray for them.

David: but we have not had a time when one showed up.

Karen: Once I think.

David:  I can’t remember that. Maybe when we were first starting but now it’s something we look forward to.

Karen: It’s just enchanting. It’s been just wonderful.

David: It’s been very very good. lots of those stream surprise people. we went an alternative route

Karen: Tributaries taking a divergent path so let’s see what that’s all about during this coronavirus pandemic.

Outgo: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast and if you would like to write to us please send us an email at the following address hosts@beforewego.show that’s all lower case letters hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen this podcast is copyright 2020 by Mainstay Ministries Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.