David:     It was only eight words, but those words changed my participation in a most significant way.

Karen:     Yeah, I know this story. It’s a great story, David, but don’t tell it just yet. First, we need to give more background.

David:     Oh, come on, please. I was all set to start.

Karen:     No!

David:     Okay.

Intro:       Welcome to the Before We Go podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Let’s begin, Karen, by explaining that our podcast is recorded about two weeks before it’s put online. So, we are recording this visit on January 13th, a Wednesday, but people won’t hear it until January 27th.

Karen:     So, when we recorded this is when the House of Representatives was scheduled to vote on impeachment of President Trump. But we’re guessing that when you hear our conversation over the podcast, that will seem like very old news.

David:     I should probably also add, Karen, that we just passed a day with over 380,000 people dead from COVID. We’re still in a financial situation that’s very, very difficult for many, many people. So, many things are going on and it goes so fast again that we hesitate sometimes to try to make ourselves current only because it’s almost impossible to do that in terms of the world in which we live. Be that as it may, we have picked an Old Testament passage to get started on. I gave that to you to read because it has a lot of difficult words.   So, I’ll palm that off on Karen. It’s from the book of Judges, Karen. It just has background if people don’t have that much of a Bible understanding. The scriptures start out with five books by Moses. That’s the Pentateuch: Genesis, Exodus, the Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Then there’s Joshua, which is the continuation of the successor of Moses. And then we’re into Judges. Some of the important Judges, if I name them, Samson was a judge. We think of him and the story almost removed from the other.

Karen:     Yeah, that surprised me. I guess I had vague recall on that, but you think of Samson’s dramatic story with Delilah and that seems to be the thing that kind of captures your thinking about this one name.

David:     After the thing we’ll talk about in terms of the event, Samuel, probably the most famous of all the Judges. He’s the last of the Judges. Deborah is a woman judge.

Karen:     There was a woman judge.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     Which is kind of remarkable.

David:     Okay, but we’re going to read about another one who the Lord, during that time of the Judges, called out to serve him. And now I pass the scriptures on to you.

Karen:     So, this is from Judges, Judges chapter 6. And the scripture that we’re reading begins this way. “The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak that belonged to Joash, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a wine press.” Now you would generally thresh wheat, I think, on the outside, out in the open, but he was doing it in a wine press.

David:     Well, because the Midianites have taken over the country. And so he’s trying to do it in secret.

Karen:     Yeah, in secret, so they won’t take his grain. Now this phrase, the angel of the Lord just appears throughout scripture.

David:     Yeah, it doesn’t explain it anymore.

Karen:     It doesn’t explain it anymore, but it does infer that there was a supernatural recognition or intervention or some appearance. There was something physical there that Gideon could see.

David:     Yeah, and we will get to that in just a little while, in the account you’re reading, how there’s no question. That’s what it was, but he recognized it early on.

Karen:     So, when the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, the angel said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.” Of course, he’s been grinding the grain, hiding from the Midianites.

David:     It doesn’t feel like the mighty warrior.

Karen:     And these angelic appearances always take the form of a male, I believe, all through scripture.

David:     Yeah, all through scripture, angels are male, they’re non-sexual in a way, I guess, but they never appear as a woman.

Karen:     Yeah, okay, but sir, Gideon replied, “If the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us?” We’re doing a little griping here, I think.

David:     Well, just…

Karen:     If the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us?

David:     You discovered his backside.

Karen:     “Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian.” The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?” Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David:     That’s what I…

Karen:     That’s what I was going to say, It’s ok for you to say.

David:     That’s what I was afraid you were coming to.

Karen:     And Gideon responds, I love these scriptures where you have this dialogue between a very ordinary human, God is actually asking you to do extraordinary things. They sound so contemporary. The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?” And Gideon responds, “But Lord, how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh and I am the least in my family. I’m the littlest of the littlest, the oddest of the oddest.” And the Lord answered, “I will be with you and you will strike down all the Midianites together.”

David:     Which he does.

Karen:     Yeah, but he doesn’t know that this time. This is one of those things where you say, “Was that dinner I ate last night? Is this really something that I’m hearing that I…”

David:     You’re identifying.

Karen:     I am. Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign.” This is so human. Give me a sign that is really you talking to me. Please do not go away though until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you. And so we’re thinking of a little bowl of something. The Lord said, “I will wait until you return.” And so two hours later or maybe more. Gideon went in, prepared a young goat and from an Epa of flour, he made bread without yeast, putting the meat in a basket and it’s broth in a pot. He brought them out and offered them to the angel of God under the oak. And the angel says to him…

David:     Now, this is coming up.

Karen:     “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock and pour out the broth.” He asked him to make it an offering to God. And Gideon did so with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. The angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Now there was no fire on that on that rock before the angel touched it. And then suddenly fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread and the angel of the Lord disappeared. Now Gideon got it.

David:     Yeah, well, I think he’s thinking, oh my goodness. Oh my, it’s what I thought he was. And I think he said that I was supposed to deliver it.

Karen:     The least of the least. When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Ah, Sovereign Lord, I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” And he hears the Lord say to him, “Peace, do not be afraid.” You are not going to die.  Now how many times in our lives have we had a nudge like that or an incident like that or something that says this is something you should be doing. And you think, I’m just a little guy. I’m the least of the least. Who do you think you are? And what do you think I can do? I mean, we have these dialogues, I think with God in a long life where he is asking us to do something. We’re not so sure we can.

David:     Yeah. And it gets scarier as far as what he is supposed to do, that the Lord gives him specific directions on, but people will have to read that on their own.

Karen:     Yeah, this is a continued story reading. You want to see how this ends, get your Bible and look up Judges 6.

David:     I identify with what is going on. I think you do as well.

Karen:     Very much so.

David:     Yeah, we’re all kind of nobody’s. My feeling is that if our listeners are honest, many of them, if not almost all of them will say, “That’s exactly how I feel, especially right now, because what is happening in terms of our country, it’s unparalleled as far as our life experience is concerned. But what in the world are we supposed to do? I am a nobody.”

Karen:     Yeah, what are the little people supposed to do when we have a raging pandemic? I mean, thousands dying per day, David, this is just gripping. Right now, our governmental system seems to be in a gridlock and going on and on, the economy collapsing. And so the angel of the Lord comes to you and says, I have something I want you to do. And your response is, I’m just a little guy. I’m just a little gal. I am a nobody.

David:     Yeah, I had a funny call just yesterday, Karen, our oldest son, Randall, called. He’s in Texas. He said, you have a little wild dad and just kind of kidding. I just came out of the blue. I said, well, if you’ll talk real fast, because I have a call waiting from Nancy Pelosi, she’s interested in what my thoughts are about what is going on. And he laughed. And he knows it. That’s the last thing in the world that’s going to happen.

Karen:     Nancy Pelosi ain’t calling you babe. Neither is Mitch McConnell.

David:     I could have said anybody that’s fallen on it. He would have laughed, but Nancy Pelosi was the first thing that came to my mind. I thought, well, yep, that’s exactly who we are. You know, what are we going to do? I think who are the big people again, Karen?

Karen:     We’re looking for those outstanding Christian voices who have wisdom and foresight and who can walk the division, help us get out of this division.

David:     But who is that, Karen? I would think that’s just name and name. See Franklin Graham. Billy Graham was a huge personality and a hero to me. I talked about him on the podcast. Franklin raised in that milieu. If God came to Franklin Graham, like he came to get in, I think Franklin Graham would say, you know, God, that’s what you want me to say. But who am I? Nobody’s going to listen to me.

Karen:     Well, one of the things I am doing is praying that God will raise up those younger leaders so they have national voices and can speak prophetically. And I think without aligning themselves with political parties or movements that bring up partisanship, whatever.

David:     Well, whoever it would be, whether it’s Pat Robertson, if we talk about our generation, that is a horrendous assignment to be told, this is what I want you to do. And let me confirm that it’s me talking because here’s a miracle. You never could pull it off on your own. Now go do what I told you, which is exactly what Gideon has to do. In fact, God keeps saying to him, you got too much going for you. I’m going to take some of that away because when it’s all over, I want you to make sure that it wasn’t you who pulled it off, but it was me helping you.

Karen:     Yeah, the glory comes to me. Yeah. Started the podcast by talking about eight words. So we’re all kind of wondering if we remember.

David:     I forgot to tell you what it was. Okay, the little people. Here’s what happened. My big event of the day yesterday. Through the course of the day, I have times when I talk to the Lord, one of those is when I go to the post office, it’s about 12, 15 minutes.

Karen:     15 minutes.

David:     Yeah. And I don’t turn the radio on. I just pray and it’s kind of nice because when you wear a mask, people don’t know that you’re talking to you.

Karen:     You pray out loud.

David:     Yeah. That’s exactly right. I was saying, Lord, you know, I’m confused. I am lost.
I don’t know what your mind is and I don’t know what to say to people. I’m just a little guy and I went into the post office. I opened the box. There was a letter from our account. We have a professional service that takes care of our bookkeeping. I don’t hear from them often by mail. So I thought I’ll open it up and as I try to do it with my fingers, I didn’t have a letter opener with me. You know what the lip of the envelope is where you lick it. I would say that a third of that…

Karen:     …is called a flap.

David:     I learned something today. I don’t think it is, but I’m going to accept it.

Karen:     That’s all right.

David:     The flap part of the flap fell on the floor and I looked down and looked around to see if anybody was there. Nobody was. And I thought just leave it.

Karen:     Give it a little kick.

David:     There’s got to be a custodial service in the post office.

Karen:     Let them do it.

David:     Yeah, Let them do it.

Karen:     That’s the time for you to lead over. That’s really the big trouble.

David:     Just let me tell the story. Then in my mind, conscience said, you know, what do you think you are, David? And so I leaned over, picked it up and put it in the proper container. I got the mail, went out to the car and started driving away. I said, look, that’s probably the biggest thing I’ve done all day because I picked up the piece of paper if you want to know who a nobody is. And Karen, a block west of the post office, there’s a church. I think it’s Trinity of the Church. What is the… when they have the sign outside, it’s not a marquee, it’s a theater.

Karen:     Yeah, I can’t remember it right now, but it’s word with glass on it where they put messages.

David:     And they had those words, “love God, love your neighbor, change the world.” I read it again, “love God, love your neighbor, change the world.”

Karen:     So are those the eight words?

David:     Those are the eight words that I thought, that’s good for me. Pick up the paper. It’s not just you, it’s multiplied, literally millions of such people around the world who are living in a different way than most people live. And most of it, when you pick up the paper, nobody’s there to applaud. But the cumulative effect of all people being obedient to their conscience or to a direct revelation like Gideon, that’s what makes the kingdom go forward and changes the world.

Karen:     It does change the world.

David:     That’s a good story.

Karen:     Yeah. Can I tell my story?

David:     I don’t know what  your story is. So, how am I supposed to answer that?

Karen:     Well, let me describe, I’m going to do it anyway, because that seems to be the theme here. We live on a street called Hawthorne Lane and across from us is, there are about 200 houses that were built like, oh, maybe 10 years after we moved here, we’ve lived here about 50 years. And so those houses, the back of them faces our street and then-

David:     It’s like the housing section.

Karen:     Housing section. And then there’s a small wooded area that runs on an easement between their backyard and the walk where I start my walk of three and a half miles.

David:     I know what you’re going to say. Okay.

Karen:     So, I go three and a half miles and when I get to the Christian High School on the corner, then I know I have a half mile more to go to get back to our house. That’s just a place where people throw garbage. I don’t know if the kids from high school are having treats after school.

David:     They don’t take a garbage bag and throw that there, but they throw stuff out the car.

Karen:     Well, they might throw their whole McDonald’s bag out.

David:     That’s fair. So, you see that a little-

Karen:     And often there’s a plastic bag that’s been discarded and it gets caught in the brush.

David:     A lot of it is in front of our house.

Karen:     Yeah. Not on our side of the street though. It’s on the other side of the street because that’s where the walk is that I walk on. So, I made up my mind that when I came back to come home on my walk that I would grab one of those discarded plastic bags or bags on the ground and I would just pick up all of the garbage. And I thought, this is good for me. I’m cleaning things up here a little bit, but the bending over, I’m just trying to keep myself flexible as we age. That would be a good exercise for me. You get back home and you dump it in our outside garbage, then, and it’s not a job. I’ve never had anyone come out and say, hey, yay for you, let’s hold that little white-haired lady. We appreciate you doing that.

David:     But I’ve noticed you do it.

Karen:     And I don’t do it for that anyway. You know, it’s just a gift, a small little gift.

David:     Here, there’s the bag lady.

Karen:     The bag lady, the garbage gal. But David, that’s made me think a lot about the fact that we do many of us feel like we’re just little people. And when the problems are so huge, you’re tempted to want to come up with a final solution for the big, huge problems.

And like you said, Nancy Pelosi isn’t calling us poorer than wise. And we probably wouldn’t know what to do either. But we can do the little things.

David:     Or the Christian things.

Karen:     Or the Christian things. The thing that the Holy Spirit prompts us to do that may seem as though it doesn’t count for much. But that’s the point of being obedient. Obedient when the word of the Lord comes to us in that still small voice. But my thoughts about this are, David, that there are millions of little people. There are millions of Christians who feel like little people. I mean, when you sit down and really count it out. But if we act as a conglomerate.

David:     If we live decidedly Christians.

Karen:     If we live decidedly Christians. And we just did the little things. Nothing particularly heroic. Nothing that’s going to hit the headlines of any newspaper or a magazine article. We just do it and we do it unto the Lord because it needs to be done. And it’s something we can do.

David:     Yeah. And those little people change the world.

Karen:     Those little people, that’s right. Exactly what the science says. It does change the world.

David:     Karen, let me take it beyond just picking up scraps. Okay. If we live decidedly Christians. It will mean that in many ways we will be incredibly different. Jesus says if somebody hits you on one cheek, what do you do?

Karen:     You turn your cheek. You get off of the other one.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     I mean, where is that coming from? That’s just extraordinarily like different than anything we think about it as far as human encounter.

David:     All of those teachings of Jesus, which are so radical and which he lived out. If all of us would live in that way, the kingdom way, it would be incredible. It would transform things.

Karen:     So Jesus said, there was a whole list of them. But one of them, I’m recalling right now is don’t curse those back. Those who curse you, bless them. Now that’s…

David:     Well, love your enemy.

Karen:     Love your enemy. These are called positive opposites. Because we think of what normally humans would do. If someone’s angry at you, and we’ve seen pictures of this on television, two grown men yelling and shouting at one another. Someone’s angry at you. And you do not, when you’re practicing the positive opposite that Christ has taught, you do not respond in kind. A soft answer turns away wrath. And this goes through all of scripture. The Proverbs have all kinds of positive opposites in them. So, that’s one of the things little people can do that in the conglomerate of function has impact in the world. It can change the environment of a room. And so what we want to do is not respond the way the world responded. We’re seeing a lot of that. This partisanship, this name calling, this labeling of the person on the other side of the aisle. Doesn’t matter what side of the aisle, you’re labeling them. And then you make them a caricature. Instead of saying, this person has dreams. I’m going to believe they have good intent. I want to believe that they’re gifted to do this work. And how can I encourage them in this moment of discourse that is so negative by not being the same way, but to practice the positive opposite?

David:     I’m going to look for the good in this other person. And again, these stories of scripture, we’ve heard them so many times. We’ve lost sometimes the reality of what Jesus said. I think of Jesus, he goes to the house of the sinners. You know, he calls a Matthew who is a tax collector. You’re socializing with sinners.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     This is a terrible thing.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     And Jesus saying, you know, I didn’t come to call the righteous. I’ve come to call sinners to repentance. He goes through Jericho and there’s little Zacchaeus up in the tree. And everybody knows he’s a scoundrel. He’s a guy who’s cheating people because he’s colluded with the enemy. And on top of that, he’s feathering his own nest, if that makes sense. And Jesus says, I’m going to your house today. And he treats him with respect. And in a short period of time, he totally transforms the person’s life. So, it is not only with our actions, with our words, with our attitude, when we hear someone else instead of immediately thinking. Okay, I’m going to judge that individual, whether it’s a man or a woman. Help me understand where you are coming from. And I will do my best to try to respond to you in a Christian manner. That’s huge.

Karen:     We have a husband and wife team who are pastoring our church. It’s a small church, but a very special place. And she was talking about her go-to phrase: “What an idiot,” “that idiot”, you know.

David:     But then she…

Karen:    She had to preach on a certain…

David:     Don’t call anybody a fool. That was the passage.

Karen:     She was assigned the topic to preach on, and that was the topic she was preaching on. And so, she really had to confess that to the congregation. But that’s where the rubber hits the road here. So, let’s just do a little self-examination, which is always important for us to do. And ask the Holy Spirit to guide us in that self-examination. Who is it that I am calling an idiot, or whatever terms I use? And God forgive me for being that way, for not having the grace, that not remembering that Jesus died for the entire world, and the scoundrels of the world particularly. There’s a thief on the cross. He told he would be in paradise with him that very day. So, are we Christ-like in our attitude? Are we catching ourselves in our negative banter? Just this whole area of self-examination we need to go through. But love God, love your neighbor, change the world, and that is what happens.

David:     I’m still working on a sentence.

Karen:     Ok.

David:     And I hesitate to throw it out to you because you…

Karen:     Well, I’m the in-house editor.

David:     Yes, and you have to do it in a kind, gentle way. This is the best I’ve come up with so far, but I know it doesn’t read right.

Karen:     Ok.

David:     If living decidedly Christian, little people can change the world.

Karen:     Okay, that’s strong. But I would do when living decidedly Christian, when living… Or while living decidedly Christian, little people can change the world.

David:     Harold Inzell was one of the early editors of Christianity today. It was Harold who used that phrase. I remember talking with him. I actually interviewed him on the broadcast years ago, and he said, “If we need to live decidedly Christian,” I thought to myself, that’s a neat phrase. I like that.  So, I was working with Harold. He’s with the Lord now, so I’m giving credit. Bless him. But I couldn’t figure it. So, now that you’ve said it, I need you to say it again as quickly as possible. I can write it down and get it right. The sentence that we’re working with is…

Karen:     When living decidedly Christian, little people can change the world.

David:     Okay, that’s pretty good. I like that. So, in a sense, that says that little people are not really little people until they understand the magnitude of the kingdom of God and all of us together. Working to be Christlike in every possible way, decidedly Christian, we have that opportunity to profoundly affect the world.

Lord Jesus, this day, this is a scripture that I learned when I was a teenager. I remember Lois Jinksta down in Quincy, Illinois in the church down there, where I was raised. She was a Moody Bible Institute grad. She was hooked on memorizing scripture.

Karen:     It’s wonderful.

David:     She worked us over in that youth group, let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in my sight, oh Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. And I don’t even know where the reference is. She always said, say the reference, memorize the verse, say the reference. Now I have another assignment. I have to look up that verse and find out where it is.

Karen:     Just an idea. Why don’t you read it again, but give a pause between each line so the listeners can repeat it after you.

David:     Okay. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, oh Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.

Karen:     Amen.

David:     And because I don’t have, I was going to say it, you beat me to it. You said amen and I was going to say amen as well. It’s good. I enjoy these visits. How about you?

Karen:     I do very much.

David:     Even in difficult, difficult times, the Lord is with us and we say to you, good friend, the Lord be with you.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.