David: After a year of living in West Chicago, Illinois, and the majority of that time in our house, tomorrow we are traveling to, would you believe, California, to visit with the son and his fiancé and they paid for the tickets. Isn’t that wonderful?

Karen: It’s wonderful. What a thing to look forward to after a year of isolation.

David: And we have our shots.

Karen: Yes, we both have our shots. Masking up, we’re going to social distance. We’re not taking this casually, but we do think we have the freedom to travel.

David: Randall and Judith bought tickets on Southwest. Now that means that we’re not sure where we will be sitting on the plane. It’s possible, depending on where we are in the line, that we will get to sit next to each other and it’s possible you’ll be five rows up and I’ll be behind you. And somebody is a total stranger sitting by you or sitting by me. I know Karen, because I’ve had it happen too many times, that very quickly on if the person is a talker, they will ask me, “What do you do?” And I will respond, “I’m a minister.” And then either that opens up a conversation that will last for a long time or otherwise it’s all over and they’re going to sit quietly and say, “How in the world did I sit next to a minister?”

Karen: I’m eager to hear what kinds of questions you might ask.

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David at Karen Mains.

David: I have made it a rule, Karen, that I don’t like to kind of dump information on people. In fact, I find that when I’m the one doing most of the talking and another person is saying, “Uhuh, Uhuh, Uhuh,” the conversation is going where I want it to go, but not necessarily where that individual would be most helped by. So what I’m trying to do is to ask questions. One of the questions that I found is very effective relates not necessarily to Jesus at the beginning, but it relates to a bigger concept, which is the golden rule. “Do you know what the golden rule is and what do you think about it?”

Karen: Now this generally comes after someone has said, what do you do? Are you retired or you know, obviously that age and you’ll say, “I’m a minister,” and they’ll say, “Well, what church do you pastor?” And you’ll say, “Well, I’m not pastoring anymore. We had a broadcast ministry and we don’t do that anymore, but we’re still in the people care business.”

David: And one of the things that’s interesting about me that I’ve discovered anyway is that there is a commonality between all the major faiths. They all affirm what is called the golden rule. Do you know what the golden rule is?

Karen: So that’s the question that you start with. Or one of the questions, you have a variety.

David: Yeah. And they know the answer or they don’t. And then it’s a matter of saying, “You know, Islamic faith, Hindu faith, Christian faith. All of this, you trace it back, to this concept of ‘Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you’ is characteristic of all these faiths.” In fact, Jesus, when he quotes it in the New Testament, he refers back to the Old Testament, Judaism, and he just amplifying what the Jewish people taught. Do you think that there are many people in the world who live by this golden rule?

Karen: Okay, let’s say you and I have that conversation. We’ll sort of pretend that I’m the stranger on the plane. So, what would you ask me then?

David: Well, I’d say the golden rule, have you thought about it that much? And do you have a church background at all?

Karen: Okay, well, I think that my answer from a personal standpoint would be that’s something that is a part of my faith background. And it’s a concept or a truism or a command I hold in high regard. So, I don’t think about it as much as I should, but it is something I try to live my life by. I try to live my life by doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

David: Do you think that people in the church generally try to do that? And how successful are they?

Karen: So, I’m still the passenger on the airplane with that question.

David: Well, yeah, for a little while, although it’s very hard for me to imagine you as a seeker.

Karen: Okay, I would say that many of them would respond that people in the church try to live that way. Now, a lot of their answer will be revealing if they have had toxic relationship with the church or the faith-based groups in their background. Or a parent who was very authoritarian and imposed faith on their children. They may come up with a different answer than those who see it as an ideal in a faith-based community that’s trying to live up to that ideal. So, the way the answer would be indicative of where they are probably could be very indicative of their own faith-based journey.

David: And I can take the directions in whatever way that person would like to go even though they don’t see that I’m doing this. For example, so you had somebody who was supposedly religious but didn’t live up to that. How did that affect your life?

Karen: I have an interesting answer for that. I do listening groups in 10 years and one of the women and one of my listening groups I always remember her answer. She was talking about her background and she said actually my parents were evangelical atheists.

David: Oh my goodness.

Karen: How do you pull that give you pause?

David: Basically, she’s probably saying they were hypocritical in her mind.

Karen: In her mind. But they would be people in relationship to this topic who would teach that you should live by the golden rule but not do it themselves, not demonstrate it themselves. So, we want to make sure that our lives conform with our words and our words are based in those let’s call them universal ideals. For us as Christians, they’re specifically Christian ideals but you’ve pointed out that this has almost universal teaching among the religions of the world, the faiths of the world, different ones. And so we have a universality here and that’s why it becomes a topic that is a good opener topic because most people have some idea what this means.

David: I feel that I want to establish a relationship that isn’t adversarial. And the golden rule is a wonderful way to do that. Do you in terms of your background see people as living up to this or do you see them falling short in terms of the church you’re part of? If they say what about you? I say you know what? I’ve lived quite a while and I’ve been able to travel a lot in the world and it’s amazing to me what I see Christian people doing. They’re not all perfect in a long way but the good that they bring into the world is it’s absolutely, I mean with COVID you got churches that have pooled their money and they bought groceries, they’re giving it away. Those are phenomenal things and I respond to that in a beautiful way. Do you see that at all happening?

Karen: Yeah, I think that’s a really fascinating question when you have a willing conversationalist in a seat beside you, a stranger to open up with and see where it goes. What an interesting thing. A lot of people will say in conversations like this, yeah, I am faith-based right. I was raised in the church or some of them really have good feelings for that background. They just have become negligent. They haven’t applied the church principles or that way of life to their own adult selves now.

That opens up the possibility of why are you not a part of a membership of faith or do you think you can grow spiritually without having that input and that stimulation and those people loving care for you and that you love and care for?

David: If someone says the church isn’t as good at following the rule as them talking about the rule then I think I would say again this is just a representative question. Do you think Jesus was good at this or do you think Jesus was hypocritical? What he said he didn’t live. Then depending on where they go, maybe they don’t know that much about Jesus. And you try to say, here’s some of the amazing things that he did. He healed people and he never sent them a bill. He just healed them. It was quite unusual.

Karen: He was loving in every way. He functioned out of a compassion model.

David: And you know what? Jesus was also very hard on hypocrites.

Karen: Spiritual hypocrites, religious leaders who were not what they should have been.

David: He called them out and said you’re not living the way you’re supposed to be living and it got him into trouble because those people who were leaders of religion, they didn’t like him pointing out their flaws. But I’m continuing to ask questions as much as I can to get to the place where I can ask something far more personal in terms of your own life.

Karen: What is your faith journey? Where are you now? You often will ask something like, well, what’s your religious history or your spiritual history? I would think that would close people down. But because you’re a minister and you’ve identified yourself for that, they are always grateful for you asking that question. It’s like they want to talk about it. Have you ever had anyone say, I just don’t want to talk about that stuff?

David: You’re asking me something to, I’ve never had ever. But Karen, I’m also not trying to say, okay, we’re going to land in 20 minutes. I got to bring this person to the sinner’s prayer. I feel like the church is very broad and the Holy Spirit is very experienced and if that happens, fine, it happens.

Karen: It’s part of a juncture on their spiritual journey somewhere and you have joined them at that point and God will take them forward. You don’t have to take them forward.

David: Just the other day I was talking to a gentleman and I said, “If you were to become a Christian, how do you see that changing your life?” And then whatever a person is, I would say, what do you think? I’d say, basically you’re going to learn how to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. You don’t want to live that way. Then you don’t want to become a Christian because the spirit of Jesus will enter you and try to teach you to live that way.

Karen: I think in this time of COVID-19, that is a really interesting injunction. Love your neighbor as yourself. I found a sign company that will print up signs for me and so I had two signs. We have a circular driveway and it either ended the driveway and I had the signs printed up that said, love your neighbor as yourself. Yep, that means all of them. We are surrounded by little woodlots except the house in the back. There are joining yards and we had a cranky neighbor. That lady, I won’t even go into it.

David: Let’s leave it alone. But we, Lord loves her.

Karen: That I think was more of a reminder to me than anyone else. Yep, that means all of them. You need to be loving as much as you’re able to, at least in your attitude and your prayer for them. Now, since that time, this is just to illustrate what it’s like when we can love our neighbor. That lady has sold their house and this enchanting family has moved in. They have three little girls. They’re stair steps. We have one of those big trampolines in our backyard that we have put in for our grade school grandchildren who hardly ever used it. But the little girls next door, I mean, they’ve been there for what, three months? They’re over in the backyard on the trampoline all the time. And this is, as we said, we’re coming out of winter. The days are cloudy. It is such a joy to me to look out and see my neighbor’s children jumping on the trampoline. And guess what? Now, when our younger grandchildren who haven’t used the trampoline come over to visit, guess who’s out there jumping with the neighbor children on the trampoline?

Just lovely. But that’s been an example to me of neighborliness. And we’re losing that whole concept of neighborliness in our culture. There are a lot of sociological studies that show that people don’t even know the names of the folk who live beside them. So, I think this is one of the aspects of Christianity that we’re really called to do, is to reestablish the whole concept of being a good neighbor, loving your neighbor, doing unto others as you would have them do unto yourself. It kind of comes under the whole big umbrella of what that means.

David: If a Muslim neighbor had moved in, how would you have responded?

Karen: I would have been thrilled to have them there. And then I would have said, “Let’s get to know one another better.” You know, I said to the neighbor in the back, we will have you come in as soon as the COVID restrictions are lifted, we want to get to know more about you and get to know your children. I do the same with Muslim neighbors. And then I probably say, “Well, you know, we’re the Christian faith and I need to learn more about Islam. So if you’re devout and practicing Muslims, please share what your faith is like to me because I think I could be a good learner in that process.”

David: You think there are conscientious Muslims who believe in the golden rule?

Karen: I think so.

David: They’re all over this country.

Karen: Yeah, I think so. Yes, they are.

David: Does that mean a Christian and a Muslim are identical in their beliefs?

Karen: No.

David: Not at all. What’s interesting, Karen, is our new neighbors, they have come and you’ve gotten to know the little girls and such and you’ve asked them to join us on an Easter egg hunt in the backyards and they’re very open.

Karen: Well, because of COVID, we again, we have these little woodlots on either side of us. We used to have Easter egg hunts in the woods. And then the community where our grandkids live, the little ones in West Chicago started to do a block Easter egg hunt. But now they’re not doing it because of COVID. So, we have set up, we’ve been asked to establish the Easter egg hunt tradition again and I was talking with my neighbor and I said, “We’re going to do an Easter egg hunt. Do you want to be a part of it?” And she said, “Oh, we were going to do it.” And I said, “Well, do you want to do it all together? We get all of our kids and much.” She said, “Oh, that would be wonderful.” So, isn’t this beautiful? It’s just such an affirmation to me of the kind of person I want to be. I want to be a good neighbor and I want to love my neighbors. I want to learn to treat people instinctively and intuitively, even in conflicted circumstances, the way I want them to treat me. I want to treat people the way that I want them to treat me.

David: Sometimes Karen, in asking questions, you have a person who has almost been looking for someone who can give direction.

Karen: Oh, I think that’s true.

David: And I find in conversations, I wouldn’t start with this, but to ask people, if you missed the mark, what would you call that? If you don’t live up to this standard of loving God and loving your neighbor, or maybe as an in-between question, which is harder for you, loving God or loving people? I know a lot of people say loving people is hard, but loving God, maybe the opposite. And let them talk on that. And then feeling your way. Do you know what the Bible says when you miss the mark, when you don’t do this golden rule? Do you know what the Bible calls that? And then we’re into, again, we’re understanding that this is sin. We have missed the mark. That’s the basic essence. When you say sin, people can think of all different things. They can think about getting drunk. They can think about robbing a bank.

Karen: They can think of the more horrendous aberrations in human behavior.

David: But in terms of where God is, it’s not paying attention to God, and it’s not loving others. That’s sin. And in that regard, it’s very true that all of us have contributed to the pain of the world because we haven’t loved God the way we should, and we haven’t loved others. All kinds of questions. Do you think you could just change on your own and starting today?

Karen: Be what you want to be.

David: Yeah. Love God the way you should, and love other people?

Karen: Or do you need some help along the way?

David: That’s a great way. You need some help along the way. That’s a perfect thing. And again, all the time checking myself to say, am I doing most of the talking, or am I letting this person talk and kind of move toward God?

Karen: You generally condense what we’re saying on the podcast in a sentence. Do you have that sentence?

David: Oh, Karen, why would you even ask me such a thing?

Karen: This is called a leading question, right?

David: You’re so funny. I couldn’t even start to work on something if I didn’t say, okay, let’s put it into a sentence. I think it must be repulsive.

Karen: No, it’s not. It’s very helpful.

David: Well, okay, since you asked that question.

Karen: You can be repulsive sometimes.

David: You should have left it where it was. The golden rule as expressed by Jesus is a good way to get into a conversation about spiritual matters.

Karen: Oh, that’s lovely. Read it again.

David: Okay, I’ll read it again. Yeah, you know, there are times, Karen, I get in conversation. I can’t remember what it was, we were trying to say. Yeah. Then I have to go back to that sentence. Yeah. That’s very good. And I thank you for the very nice things you’ve said about me that you haven’t yet. But anyway, the golden rule as expressed by Jesus is a good way to get into a conversation about spiritual matters.

Karen: Can I say one nice thing about you?

David: Oh, I would love it. I’d not say, can you think of two?

Karen: I can. You have, I can think of much more. You have a wonderfully systematic mind. And so as annoying as it can be, sometimes you’re not to move forward until we have synthesized what we’re going to say into a purpose sentence. It always is much more clarifying when we do that in our podcasting. And in my writing, now I do it, I mean, we actually taught to do this in school is to get it, what are you trying to say, get it into one sentence, but you live that way. The sermon has to go into one sentence. And I have learned to appreciate that this is just an extraordinary capability. So thank you for teaching me.

David: I think in the list of podcasts we’ve made, I’m going to put a star by this one. I could say if you don’t listen to this one, because I come off pretty good at the end of this one. Oh my goodness, I’m going to stop there. It’s not going to get any better than what’s just happened, folks.

Outgo: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all lowercase letters, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.