Karen:   Three words we don’t like.

David:   It’s true. We dislike all three of them.

Karen:   So, we’re wondering if our listeners have any words that prompt a negative response in them. Think about it.

David:   We don’t want to give these three words more exposure than they deserve. Nevertheless, we’ll talk about them so you could decide whether or not you agree with us.

Karen:   So, that’s our agenda for this time together on our weekly podcast called Before We Go.

Intro:     Welcome to the Before We Go podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

Karen:   This first of the three words we don’t like probably won’t be in your dictionary.

David:   Well, it’s in the dictionary. It just doesn’t have the definition that we’re getting used to as a culture.

Karen:   So, what’s the word?

David:   Well, the word is spinning.

Karen:   Oh spinning.

David:   If you go to the dictionary, it will say the act of making thread from fiber and it will refer you to like a spinning wheel but that’s not where we are in terms of our culture when we use that word.

Karen:   So, we have a more contemporary definition of it than it was in the dictionary.

David:   Well, we actually will talk about a spin doctrine.

Karen:   Okay.

David:   It’s someone who has skilled at talking about facts but making them more pleasing or palatable for people to read so that they will agree. Make sense?

Karen:   Yeah, it’s a big part of the political world I think. Well not just the political world but…

David:   I think it’s true and well it could be in the advertising world; but certainly in terms of the news media, whether it’s television or printed media. You say what is it that this person is going to be more open to hearing?

Karen:   What is the listener that you work? Yeah, push it push it like crazy. So, our concern is that this skill or if we want to call this skill; this spinning concept is starting to reach the local church.

David:   I talked with an individual, Karen, just the other day, and that person said, “This is what I’m good at. In fact I see this as a gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Karen:   Spinning?

David:   Anyway, it kind of took me back. And I was thinking, “Oh my goodness I can’t believe that you actually said this to me.” But spinning, yeah that’s what the person was saying. “I’m very good at it and it’s an important thing to me and I’m using it on behalf of the kingdom.”

Karen:   Okay, so what do we mean by the word spinning?

David:   Well, I think again, I don’t know what an actual dictionary definition would be.

Karen:   You looked it up, but it doesn’t capture how we use it in common parlance today.

David:   It’s too new. But it’s people who say “I’m going to say what I think you want to hear and I’m going to pull you into my side by beginning that way.” I see it almost as a dishonest approach. I’m not going to be forthright in terms of what I’m saying.

Karen:   When I think of the word spinning, I think of someone putting whatever they’re trying to say in the context of it being more than it really is. Whatever they’re selling or whatever they’re pitching or whatever they’re attempting to get someone to join. That when they spin, they emphasize the goodness of that organization or that activity more than it really is; and they leave out anything that would be disadvantageous or negative or flawed to the emphasis of… “Boy this is really great you’re going to love it. You need to buy it. You got to go see it. Any of that stuff that is just pushing whatever it is.” They’re pushing a little bit more than what it really is.

David:   Yeah, it may not be an outright lie but it’s playing with the truth. And I think a spin doctor, that’s what a spin doctor does. Was Jesus a spinner? You know, because this person said to me, “Everyone spins. In fact, David I would bet if I read your bio, it makes you look a little bit better than you really are.”

Karen:   I wrote your bio.

David:   I forgot about that.

Karen:   It tells people what you exactly are. No, we’re not spinning at all. I think that is dangerous thinking, David because it veers from the Christian standard of truth telling. Now, we don’t tell everything great that we did, or we think that we did. And we don’t tell everything that’s awful in our lives the ways that we have failed and wish we hadn’t failed or wish we had done better. But we attempt to say, this is who the Mains are. Or this is who David is or this is who Karen is. And I trust the people who are attempting to have us be a part of something who say, “This is where the advantage of this is. This is what this organization is attempting to do. It’s not perfect.” You know, you always wait for that phrase, “We have people in our organization who have their own agenda, or we have a leader who’s flawed like all leaders are flawed. But the major dream and the major concept behind this organization that we’d love to have you be a part of is true and real and beneficial. That to me is honesty. And I’m extraordinarily appreciative of it. I know the young man who talked to you about writing your bio. And I’ve read his bio is nothing but spin to the point where someone my age wouldn’t trust it at all. I want to know where you have failed, or what things have you learned from, the hard stuff you’ve gone through. So, we include some of that as well.

David:   Was Jesus spinning? When he talked about a worldwide kingdom and him being the King. Who looked at Jesus as the king? You know, it’s kind of like he was a spinner. But I don’t think Jesus was spinning at all. I think that Jesus was stating the truth. He was God’s Son. He’d come here to be the King of those who would follow him and eventually that small seed would grow into this huge movement all over the world.

Karen:   All over the world.

David:   I don’t see Jesus as a spinner.

Karen:   I came to the earth that mirrored the one that was evidence—a huge concept. I don’t think he was a spinner. I don’t think he spun at all. I mean he was presenting reality and truth. But I think he knew that the people who would follow him, we humans, would have the tendency and give into the temptation to spin. And generally, what happens with that is: we don’t spin our organization as much as we attempted to spin ourselves.

David:   You think so.

Karen:   I think that’s where the great temptation lies. And maybe we have an understanding of humility enough to know that it’s not good to spin yourself. So, we spend the organization that we’re part of but we’re really wanting to tell someone how great we are as far as being a part of that organization is what I suspect.

David:   But spinning is not something you like as far as a concept. It is not necessarily something I like.

Karen:   I would say that when we see fellow Christian leaders, then we have a reaction a negative reaction to it. And partly that’s because we have been in ministry all of our lives, we’ve been in media ministry. I don’t think it’s just a temptation of the leaders of media ministry. I think a lot of pastors have these same problems or local leaders in the church. So, when we see people in ministry, whether it’s in large media ministries or in the local church, doing what we call spinning, we have a check in our spirit that says, “I’m not sure what’s going on here. Why do they need to spend so much? Are they telling the truth? That sort of stuff goes on.

David:   We started by saying, “It pervades the political world.” It certainly is a part of what would we call it?

Karen:   The news media.

David:   The news media.

Karen:   You mentioned that.

David:   …and it’s creeping into the church. And it’s just one of those areas where people need to be very careful. Let’s move on to the second word. The second word, Karen, is propagandizing.

Karen:   Okay. So, we have the first word is spinning. We don’t like that word.

David:   No, we don’t. And propaganda is when… I hear the word propaganda; I think in terms of Nazis.

Karen:   Nazi propaganda.

David:   Yes. And I think a Russian propaganda, you know, what they’re doing is. There in a sense, they’re spinning as well. But when you say propaganda, you’re talking about a huge effort on the part even of nations. It’s the proclamation of truth. However, with deception and distortion. I picked that right out of the dictionary.

Karen:   Generally, has a negative cast. You know, when we hear of someone being a propagandist or a certain kind of propaganda, we associate that with some sort of a negative evaluation.

David:   Does the church ever falls into this propaganda category?

Karen:   Always susceptible to this error as in any other area? And what we’re asking our listeners to do is to be more discriminating in their evaluation of the things that they hear. Ask themselves, “Is this a spin that someone’s putting on this? or is this propaganda.” And by propaganda, we would go along with that Webster’s dictionary definition.

David:   I would say sometimes when the church moves into propaganda, it says that its stories all have happy endings; or this story is told of the person who is an absolute sinner who becomes a saint and never has problems after that.

Karen:   Glorious conversion

David:   Yeah

Karen:   Which are wonderful to hear about. I mean we all…

David:   There are such stories.

Karen:   And I’ve seen them in our own ministry. but it becomes something else when it’s being propagandized. It’s using a reality and pushing it beyond the reality. I think is another way of approaching it.

David:   There’s something that’s not right about it. In fact, Karen, I would say that many times it bothers me when at the end of a message or the end of a television program or whatever, the individual in charge will say, “Let me just say to you people who are not followers of Jesus, if you would want to become a follower of Jesus here’s a simple prayer for you to pray. Just pray it after me.”

Karen:   The sinner’s prayer.

David:   That’s the sinner’s prayer. Yeah, and people have different versions of it. But it makes a complex message highly simplified. And it’s like this is all that’s involved. It’s like in Scripture where you get the story of the rich young ruler and he says to Jesus, “What do I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus says to him, “Just repeat after me this prayer and you will become a part of the kingdom” which is obviously not.

Karen:   Not what Jesus said to the rich young ruler.

David:   He could have but he didn’t. And a lot of times, I believe this actually becomes a propaganda piece. It’s not that hard. It’s all grace. It’s all on God’s part. There isn’t a sense of the person saying, “I have screwed up my life. I have dishonored not only you but my fellow travelers.”

Karen:   “I have sinned.”

David:   “I have sinned.

Karen:   “I am a sinner.”

David:   “I confess my sin. “

Karen:   So, there’s this extraordinary conviction as far as their state of alienation from God. Let me just make a parenthesis here, because you do have the spiritual gift of evangelism. And I watched it manifest itself at our dining room table, like countless numbers of times. Someone comes and we get into a conversation because they are a seeker, because of the questions that you ask them in a very gentle way that indicate that they’re a seeker. They know that they do not know God the way they want to. But you make it very clear to them that what we have to do is be ready when we come to God to give up the past life. We have to be ready to say, “I am a sinner and I ask you for your forgiveness.”

David:   And we need to come to the cross.

Karen:   We need to always take them to the cross. I mean, I’ve watched it over and over again. And the moment you do that, their eyes are just filled with tears. They’re filled with emotion. So, this is the sinner’s prayer. But what we’re saying is that it takes a lot more time than what often is tagged onto some media ministry appeal. And that’s what your reaction is, as far as is there enough information there to really help a true conversion process? Or is it so simplistic that the person who wants that makes a sort of simple nod without going through the process of repentance? And that’s what you’re cautioning about, I think.

David:   I see it almost as propaganda.

Karen:   Okay.

David:   It’s as simple as just a routine. There is a routine to people coming to the Lord, but it isn’t superficial. I would equate superficiality with propaganda in many ways. So anyway, I don’t like the word. I hope that my illustration is on target. We can go to a third word.

Karen:   But we’re asking our listener to, again, I’m emphasizing this, to be wary of the times when they’re being spun by some sort of communicator somewhere. Or of the message of the kingdom of God, or of salvation that comes through a propagandizing kind of effort. Generally, the motivations behind either of those two things are not straight on or good or holy.

David:   I don’t know whether that’s fair. I don’t know what the motivation is. I think most ministers who say this is the sinner’s prayer, they want the best for the person. It’s just that it’s been reduced to a formula that is not really fair with what Jesus talked about. Jesus said, “Go sell everything you have, give it to the poor, and come follow me.”

Karen:   To the rich and the ruler. When he was asked, how can I inherit eternal life? But I think Jesus knew that was the very thing that was standing in the way of that young man really being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it’s interesting to me that the word inheritance is used here, because among those who are wealthy, that’s a lot of how their wealth comes, is through inheriting, or inheritance. So, it was a message that was tailor made to that individual at that time. It’s pretty extraordinary, really, when you look at it.

David:   Let’s go to the third word.

Karen:   Okay, so I’ll emphasize. We don’t like spinning. We don’t like propagandizing. Here’s the next one. Da-da!

David:   Okay. Gimmicky.

Karen:   Gimmicky.

David:   Yeah.

Karen:   Gimmicky.

David:   It’s a trick.

Karen:   Gimmicky icing to make it all bit propagandizing. Okay. What does that mean, honey?

David:   Well, the gimmick is it’s a ruse or it’s a trick.

Karen:   Okay.

David:   Yeah.

Karen:   A manipulation.

David:   Yeah. And I find that sometimes in the church, as I watch in the broad scale. plant a seed of faith. You give to us, and that’s the initial planting. And then what will happen is that God will return to you, and he will multiply that. You will be amazed. There’s something that’s not right about that.

Karen:   It feels manipulative in a way.

David:   It’s a gimmick.

Karen:   Yeah.

David:   It’s how do we get people to do what we want them to do?

Karen:   Most of the time it’s i.e. support or ministry.

David:   And look it into words that sound quite spiritual.

Karen:   Well, no, it’s you give, and you’ll get something back. And I don’t find that really taught in scripture as much as you give out of obedience and love and because you’ve been nudged to do so.

David:   Not because God’s going to bless you.

Karen:   Not because, yeah.

David:   You too can have your private jet.

Karen:   Yeah, you too can have your private jet.

David:   Or your mansion.

Karen:   Yeah. I really believe that scripture teaches we are to give generously, as generously as possible, without any expectation of return. Because that makes it a pure act of obedience or act of love or act of support. And I think that’s one of the things we need to be very wary of when we listen to national media ministries. But I think that local people can fall into this trap as well. We do it for the pure joy of supporting God’s work. And the people who we feel are honorable or most of them sacrificial, they’re not making piles of money in what they’re doing. You know, I think of some of the missionaries we support and different people we want to stand beside. It’s because they’ve been called to do God’s work that we give to them and they’re doing God’s work in a way that blesses us to watch what they’re doing, what the fruit of their work is. Those are the reasons that we give.

David:   I admire the priests in the Catholic Church. They take vows of poverty, chastity, obedience. Those are all tough vows for me to say, “I will forego marrying, Karen, because I’m going to put the kingdom first. I’m going to forego having an income. The whole thing of I’m going to be obedient to others who are my superiors.” Those are very difficult vows that people take. We don’t have anything like that in terms of the Protestant leadership. It would be good if we had some checks that would be like that.

Karen:   Was it Richard Foster who wrote the book on the three great dangers that have always existed for people in ministry? Or for anyone who wants to follow Christ, are money, sex, and power? And that’s what those vows that come out of them, the Catholic monastic movement and the Orthodox monastic movement. It is well though that’s not a non-married priesthood, respond to those great three dangers, money, sex, and power. So, we take a vow of poverty and we follow Jesus the way he instructed his disciples to follow him, which is quite amazing.

David:   In fact, I’ll read that passage.

Karen:   Okay, you have it? Which passage is it?

David:   Well, this is in Luke, I think it’s in chapter nine. And it’s when he sends out the disciples. “When Jesus had called the twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out demons and to cure diseases.” Now, those are incredible gifts he gave to them to be able to heal people. That’s amazing.

Karen:   To cast out demons, you know, extraordinary.

David:   …and power, sent them out to preach the kingdom of God, which again was a wonderful, wonderful message and to heal the sick. He told them, “take nothing for the journey, no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic, whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that town as a testimony against them. So, they set out and went from village to village preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.”

Karen:   So, these vows of poverty, chastity and obedience come straight out of those recommendations that Jesus gave to his own disciples. And just think about that. You leave for a road trip, not really sure where you’re going to end up and you take no bag with you.

David:   It’s a different culture, but the overall emphasis.

Karen:   Yeah, but that’s Christ sending his disciples out to act that way. And out of that sort of commendation of Christ, the monastic movement then took those vows. It suits us well, even though we’re not in monastic movements, as Christians in a modern-day culture to reconsider what that kind of spiritual empowering that comes from Christ sending you out. How it’s fed by denying ourselves these other things. “Watch out.” Yeah, you got a big name. I mean, we’ve had some of this in our own past where everyone knew who David and Karen Mains were, or there were big gifts that came through to support the ministry and a feeling of influence.

Let’s use influence instead of the word power. Those are very heavy things. And if you give in to them, they can destroy the journey of the soul as quickly as any other kind of sin can do. So, I think this is a word for us for today. Those of us who are following Christ or have responsibilities in the church or find ourselves in positions of media ministry or wide known development organizations. These words are as important for us to follow today as they were when Jesus sent his disciples out on the road.

David:   Let me reduce things to a sentence.

Karen:   Okay, what’s the sentence for today?

David:   The humble, honest lifestyle Jesus taught and practiced should mark those who are leaders in his cause.

Karen:   Read it again.

David:   The humble, honest lifestyle Jesus taught and practiced should mark those who are leaders in his cause. Which is why I think I hate spinning because that’s very distasteful word. If I go from spinning to the second one, which is propagandizing that we don’t want to move into that area. And certainly, a gimmicky approach, that’s not something that is tasteful to us. There are other words. I don’t like the word manipulation. We can say words and being mad at the word doesn’t help. But the question is, are we being careful about all these? And I am not appointed by Jesus to evaluate how others are doing. I just have to be able to say, “Lord, is this fair in my life?”

I think I do pretty well with these. There are other areas that I avoid talking about because I don’t do as well or I’m still on my way or I’m just very grateful for God’s forgiveness. But I’ve come to him many, many times and said, “Please, Jesus, it needs to be forgiven again.” So, whatever, this is one of those areas where I’m saying, let’s all examine ourselves. You pick your words you don’t like.

Karen:   Let us know about them. We’d love to hear from you.

Outgo:   You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.