David:          Karen, I am 85 years old and something surprising and new is happening in my spiritual life.

Karen:          And I have been married to you 60 of those 85 years, so I’m very eager to know what new thing is happening in your life.

David:          I will share with you, okay?

Intro:             Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:          Well, it’s not as though you don’t know what is happening, but you haven’t been there in the room while it’s happening.

Karen:          In the room where it happens.

David:          We were at church at the end of a service.

Karen:          People were chatting.

David:          Yeah, and I kind of ended the conversation and I walked over to where Roger is. Roger’s a retired schoolteacher.

Karen:          High school teacher.

David:          I just heard him talking. I didn’t eavesdrop because…

Karen:          He was talking across the way to another gal.

David:          Yeah, that’s why I kind of ended up and he was talking about how he is being trained to be a spiritual director and she was in that same program.

Karen:          Yes, they were in the same program.

David:          Apparently, they were talking about… now they come to the place where they needed to actually employ the skills that they learned and needed…

Karen:          Directees.

David:          Yeah, directees. And he said, “I can’t find one person. I need one more person.” And I kind of walked up and listened and I said, “Hey, I’ll be that person.” And he looked at me.

Karen:          Like, “You? “

David:          And I thought to myself, did I just say that? I mean, I pray to the Lord, you know, clear my schedule more. I have too many things going on in my life. And he said, “Would you really be…” I said, “Well, I’m not sure exactly what you’re talking about.”  He is training to be a spiritual director. I’ve heard you use that term, but I really didn’t know what it was, but Roger’s a friend and if he needed somebody…

Karen:          Well, you like him a lot. He’s a wonderful man.

David:          Yeah, he’s in this great change in his life where he’s saying, “Okay, now I have the freedom. I’m retired, but I’m still healthy.” And he’s decided that he wants to be involved way more in the ministry side of the world. And Mains said, “You need somebody. I’m available.”

Karen:          So how many sessions have you had with that?

David:          Well, let me just say that after that, I was leaving the church and I said to myself, “What did I just say?” Because Roger said, “Let’s get together and I’ll talk about it and tell you what I need.”And I thought, “Oh my goodness, what is a spiritual director?” Well, there’s an hour session that he needs, and he needs that over a period of time. Just someone to… He can be that spiritual director for that person and I’m not the only one… where he’s spiritual directing. But I quite honestly didn’t know what a spiritual director was. The first time we got together, it was an early Monday morning that seemed to be a good time for me. We met at seven o’clock in the morning and he said, “Well, what would you like to talk about?” I was totally unprepared.

Karen:          You had no idea.

David:          And partway through the session, I was thinking to myself, I’ve done an awful lot of talking. I don’t remember when I’ve been in a situation where I’ve talked so much about myself. And so, I was kind of getting a feel for what was going on. As we started the time together, he said, “I have this candle and I’m going to light this. And this is going to represent the presence of Jesus while we’re here.” And that was new to me. And then that candle was there, you know, and I was beginning to think, “Yeah, Jesus is present with this as well.” And he didn’t talk about himself at all. He talked the whole time as though I was the important person. Yeah, I came home and I kind of debriefed it. And you said, “You know, he’s doing what he’s supposed to be doing.”

Karen:          Was I laughing then? Or did I keep my laughter?

David:          Oh, you always laugh. Yeah, you laugh at me. You laugh with me. But it was interesting. And then the second time I was a little more on top of it.

Karen:          What was happening…

David:          Yeah, it was an early Monday morning again. I was more prepared. I had prepared myself through my own individual, what I would call devotions or my prayer times, which I have each day. And I went to the place where I say, “This is really what I would like to talk about.” And it’s interesting to me that he was a listener and then he was a person who asks very perceptive questions. But more than any of that, I think he was a person who was a friend who was interested in me. I know Roger and I never would have talked with him, say at a restaurant, if we’d gone for a coffee or something, the way I talked.

Karen:          Well, you would have engaged him to tell you about himself because that’s our normal.

David:          Would have turned it. Yes.

Karen:          Our normal approach to the people in our lives. Well, I am laughing because.

David:          Well, I’m glad you told me because I didn’t know that you were. Now you’re laughing.

Karen:          Well, I mean, I was into this big time probably 20 years ago.

David:          I know that you’re usually ahead of me.

Karen:          No, I’m not in a lot of areas. But in this area, I was really part of a group that began to address the need in basically our branch of church’s life, conservative evangelicals for something other than just, I don’t mean just a Bible study. But in addition to Bible study and listening to sermons and maybe small groups, the tradition of this has an ancient tradition before the Middle Ages. Really. I think it began in the monastic system for spiritual directors for monks to have a spiritual director, someone they went to and talked to on a regular level who was interested in that person, the directee, telling them about their spiritual life, their spiritual progress, where they were in their relationship to God, which is just really a remarkable thing.

David:          Within the evangelical world, what I would say, as I think about this now, is that you could go to a counselor, or you could go to a pastor. And you usually would do that because there was a crisis in your life of some kind or another or a problem that you couldn’t work through. So, here was this person you would go to and then they would give you the answer. That’s not what Roger’s doing at all.

Karen:          No, he’s wanting you to find those. First of all, what are the questions even in your life? And the answers then have to come out of your relationship with God. And that’s what a good spiritual director is trained to do, to get out of the way actually in that process, to not be inserting their ideas or their opinions into that process, but to continually lead the directee in a conversation where they are telling about their growth and their journey and the blocks they have as far as spiritual life blooming in their hearts and souls. And it’s just an extraordinary gift.

David:          You feel highly honored.

Karen:          But how often do we have time? Those of us who particularly, I think, are in leadership roles or spiritual leadership roles have time to be somewhere where someone is there just to listen to us. Now, people are more and more, in conservative evangelicalism, being encouraged to find a spiritual mentor or a spiritual director. People will even use that terminology. This first began in my life, say about 20 or 30 years ago. And after these conversations with you, as far as what we were going to do in this podcast, tried to trace the history, I felt a real gap in my life. I was traveling and speaking and writing books and you get sort of a profound persona that people impose on you and maybe it’s right, maybe it’s stuff they impose on you. And realizing that I was really in a very dangerous place in my life. All of that attention and that affirmation and are you the Karen Mains of the comment?

David:          No, you’re moving into adulation.

Karen:          Yeah, adulation. They don’t mean to do that, but it’s really where it comes from that I realized I needed to have someone in my life who was totally objective, really didn’t know anything about me, but was spiritually wise. And lo and behold, I discovered that there were people who are actually being trained to be spiritual directors. And so, I…

David:          …trained within the evangelical.

Karen:          At that time, I think it was that there was a Catholic retreat center close by.

David:          I remember this.

Karen:          I called and said, “Do you do spiritual direction?” And they had some of the nuns and been trained to do spiritual direction. So, I went in, we come from this Bible centered background and evangelicalism was very cute. She was a little white-haired nun, and she was very intent that I would be Bible centered. Even in our evangelical look at Catholicism, we often don’t give them the credit for being as Bible centered as we are. And that was very cute. But the most remarkable thing about that that I remember is she gave me, I’m almost in tears about it now, a whole hour in questioning me and allowing me to talk about where I was spiritually and what was happening in my life. And I had never had that before. And you and I have a really close relationship, a really close team relationship. And we do talk about spiritual things, but I think it’s when there’s someone outside of your system of love, like you have in our marriage ,who is trained to give you that kind of time. I remember walking out of that session, there’s a little bridge that led to the retreat house over a tiny stream and just putting my elbows on the railing and so deeply moved that someone had been there just to listen to me for a whole hour. I didn’t have to take care of anyone. I wasn’t interrupted to get the phone or stir stuff in the stove or take care of kids. It was protected time, and it was truly very holy. It was very holy.

David:          Yeah, I would say this with Roger.

Karen:          More than you expect. It’s not just a conversation.

David:          There’s a certain meeting greeting, which goes very quickly. But when that candle list lit, all of a sudden, I was aware that Jesus is present. I can’t see him, but he’s present through this person.

Karen:          This is more than just a meeting of two humans. Well, and then the thought that I would be able to go back, I don’t remember if I went week after week or twice a month or once a month. I just can’t recall anymore that that woman was available to me for the same thing the next time I would come back, and the next time I would come back. And I credit a lot of my midlife growth, because this would probably been, I’m 78 years old, and this is probably in my 50s. A lot of the intense spiritual growth that I had at that time was because of her presence in my life. So, it’s just a huge gift. And what we’re doing is exposing this journey that we’ve had with spiritual direction and encouraging our listeners to say to the Lord, if they feel that they need it, and don’t have someone like that in their life, that the Lord would lead them to someone who’s really professional.

David:          Or trained.

Karen:          Or trained.

David:          Or trained individual. And apparently this is rigorous training. What’s interesting in my mind is that maybe I’m mistaken, but I can name a number of, not 20 or so, but I can name five, six, seven women who are trained spiritual directors who are a part of the evangelical church. But I don’t know that many men, and I don’t know if I would have gone to a woman. I just don’t know if I would have. But I felt close to Roger, and I knew him. And he’s not an overbearing personality.

Karen:          He’s a delightful person.

David:          Yeah.

Karen:          He’s wonderful.

David:          Yeah, when you say delightful, I would say that part of the sessions has been laughter.

Karen:          Yeah, that’s wonderful. Isn’t that wonderful?

David:          Yeah, it is. So, I see this as a growing element of the conservative church, and I see it as a very powerful thing.

Karen:          Well, I think it’s particularly powerful when you think of how much time in your daily life you spend in prayer. I mean, you’re not a novice in spiritual practices. You’re a man of the word. I mean, every time I go into your study, you’re either praying or you’re at your desk reading the word or, you know…

David:          Trying to hide the doughnut from McDonalds.

Karen:          That you snuck into your study.

Karen:          Yes. But so that’s your life. And for you at 85 to have this new spiritual thing open up, I just think it’s a beautiful gift that God has given to you. And I would like to encourage our listeners, many of whom are older, have listened to us through the years to the Chapel of the Air, and we’re delighted to have them be a part of our listening group. But I would encourage them, if they don’t have anything like this in their life, to ask the Lord if it would be a new growth edge for them in a way that they haven’t perhaps had before.

David:          Yeah, growth edge is a good way to sit, because I didn’t have a specific problem in my life I was trying to work through. But I’ve never had so much a sense of feeling of Jesus as present here as well, to walk through that and leaving. Having enjoyed is not the right word. Having felt the presence of the Lord as I was talking, I think with him because I respect Roger, and obviously I have immense respect for the Son of God. But to say to the best of my ability, I’m trying to put into words where I am in this spiritual walk.

Karen:          In my spiritual journey.

David:          In fact, Karen, this is a funny part. He asked me, ell, “What do you think God’s thoughts are about you?” And it was quite fun. And I said, “I think I bring God great joy.” I think he looks at me as a son and says, “I’m proud of my son. I enjoy our relationship.”

Karen:          Beautiful.

David:          That may be me overthinking.

Karen:          Only you would think that was overthinking, but I think that’s just where you are in your presence with the Lord. You’re feeling his approval.

David:          Yes, I do, but I didn’t feel it like I felt that when I said it. And I would be, now I’m talking on a podcast, I would be careful who I said that to and I’m not careful. But I don’t think just praying on my own, I would have come to that place. But because he asked perceptive questions, which were questions that I wouldn’t have asked myself, I found that to be very beneficial to me and I thought about the conversations. Well, conversation isn’t even the right word. This is a whole new world. He is playing a ministerial role on my behalf. It’s quite exhilarating.

Karen:          It’s wonderful. And remember decades ago, we used to say that Christians get together and they talk about everything but their faith. They talk about their kids. They talk about their work. They talk about sports. They talk about what’s in the news.

David:          What’s a good book you’ve read?

Karen:          What’s a good book you’ve seen? Or what we’ve done in vacations we’ve taken. But the one thing that’s the most powerfully common thread in all of their lives is their spiritual walk and their relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ. And they hardly ever talk about that.

So, I think that one of the things that we need to do is to remind ourselves that primarily within these physical frames that we function in, we are spiritual beings, and that Christianity is not a solo operation. We are told by scripture after scripture that we are part of a community of faith. That one of the things that manifests our spiritual maturity is how much we love God and how much we love our neighbor. And so, what you’re experiencing is something that’s part of our spiritual community and should be available to all. And we should all be partaking in it. In fact, I probably need to get another spiritual director in my life now that we’ve talked about this. But we need to step out of the American individualism that too often infiltrates our faith journey and realize that we are here for one another. And there are some people, as we have been talking about, more and more of them who are being trained to be spiritual directors, to be a spiritual friend in a way that is not ordinary or common, but specialized.

David:          The spiritual directors, I’ve never even thought of this until now, but Roger, I’m not paying him to do this. He’s never even brought it up. Did you pay the…

Karen:          I don’t remember. I think there are some.

David:          I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong.

Karen:          No, there’s nothing wrong with it. Yeah, no.

David:          If you went to a counselor, you’d probably pay that person.

Karen:          Now, I just had another thought. If you ask Roger if he has a spiritual director, what do you think he’ll say?

David:          My guess is that he would say yes. I don’t know.

Karen:          I’m guessing he’ll say yes to, or that he’s just had one and needs to get another one. I think this whole principle is pretty powerful in that we don’t do solo Christianity. We have to depend on one another, and particularly those who now are being trained to be wise directors of that process in our lives.

David:          I’ll put it into a sentence.

Karen:          Okay.

David:          I’ve tried to train people out of do this. Not very many people do, but some…

Karen:          But they need to. This is wonderful what you do.

David:          A skilled spiritual director can help you achieve a richer and deeper relationship with God. So that came pretty fast. I’ll do it again. A skilled spiritual director can help you achieve a richer and deeper relationship with God. It’s a unique role that people can play. Anyway, I’m just at the start of this. I have a feeling that I’d like to get Roger some time to come in here and I’ll let you sit and listen, but we only have two mics, and then I could ask questions I want of him just about that role. And then if you want, I can get out for this stool, and you can come sit in this one.

Karen:          No, I think they would be fine. You just to talk about the project.

David:          I think it would be helpful. So anyway, I’m going to process that one. I’ll give that sentence once more again because, you know, people listen to us and so boy it said a lot. Now, what was the thrust of it all? Well, we’re exploring this. It’s kind of exciting to us and we’re sharing it that a skilled spiritual director can help you achieve a richer and deeper relationship with God.

Karen:          That’s wonderful. One of the other things we’re trying to do is to expand our podcast listening audience. But we thought the first thing that we would do is find out who is listening to us. We have from time-to-time people who say, “I hear your podcast or and that’s wonderful.” Many of them are good friends from years and years and years running. So, we’re asking people just to sort of… Dean when he comes on, we’ll give our email address. Say, “I listen. I try to catch you as much as possible.” I’m so-and-so. “I’ve known you in the past.” And a lot of these people we know, but we just want to have a feeling for who is our audience because we’re going to start to try and grow the podcast as well.

David:          Okay, Dean.

Outro:          You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.