David: One of my favorite Bible characters is Abraham. Karen, do you know how old Abraham was when he died?

Karen: Well, he was older than we are.

David: He was twice plus some more of what I am now.

Karen: 160 years about.

David: You’re too shy. He needs to go even more.

Karen: What was it?

David: I’ll tell you. Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast, featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David: Okay, Karen. Abraham. He was 175. Karen, that’s how old Abraham was when he died.

Karen: So this is what Genesis says about that. These are the days of the years of Abraham’s life. Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was gathered to his people. Lovely.

David: That’s beautiful. Yeah, what an incredible life. And I think after that it says he was buried with his wife, Sarah, which is nice as well. She had passed on years before. There’s a picture in my study. I see it often because I’m there often. And it’s of the family. I remember what was taken. You were there as well.

Karen: Extended family. Your family, the Mains side.

David: Yeah. My folks, my older brother, Doug, his wife, Fran, you and I, and then my younger sister, Donna, and her husband, Ron. Of those eight, four are now gone. I guess you could almost say that Fran is gone.

Karen: She’s got old age dementia.

David: Yeah, it’s a sad story.

Karen: So there are three who are still left in functioning.

David: And of those, I’m the oldest. So talking about age is something I’m very aware of as the Lord has granted me all the years. I’m 85, you’re what, Karen?

Karen: I’m almost 79. So you and I sat down and we sort of brainstormed some of the things that we think about being old about old age. And so I’ve titled this “Ageing Sagely,” or the principles of being wise as you age aging sagely. Number one is choose not to get upset about the small stuff or the big stuff either.

David: Well, you choose not to be upset, I guess you would say.

Karen: Well, it’s easy to get fixated on things that don’t really matter. We came home from our 60th anniversary trip out to California and back. We took the train out and back, gift of friends and family.

David: It was such a wonderful journey.

Karen: And in the meantime, Joel means who’s moved in with us this year. He had a job shift and sold his house and said, why pay money out for another house? Just come live with us for a while. And so he’s taken on some of the projects around here that really needed to be done. And he had had the old floors removed, but it meant that every single stick of furniture had been taken out of all those rooms, sort of jambed wherever they could go.

David: Well, you couldn’t get the car in the garage, says for sure, in your study.

Karen: My little writing study jammed, sky high, ceiling high, and stuff. And then he had widened the opening space to the kitchen, which give it that open space look. And it was lovely and now looks out into the dining room, which is a large dining room. But that meant taking down cabinets. And so there weren’t foodstuffs and plates. All the dishes were packed in boxes.

David: I think the big thing was before they could put the new floor in, they had to balance the floor.

Karen: Well, strengthen it and balance and take out. Joel heard the creaks. I’ve gotten used to them, but he heard the creaks so that the creaks wouldn’t be a creaking floor.

David: Well, obviously, he’s been here for a while and it’s settled.

Karen: Because the floors are not even. Right.

David: It was amazing how they do that.

Karen: So in the midst of all that, there was a lot of little stuff that we could have been upset about. Came to the edge a couple of times.

David: You’d nudged up to. I’ll give it to you to say. All right.

Karen: The temptation was there. Don’t get upset about the big stuff either. And the principle behind that is really that God is in control of all of our lives. And so what I kept trying to do is I couldn’t find where my dishes were, was to think this is going to be done in a month, a month and a half. It actually took a month and a half to get it all back together again. The flooring was laid at 12:30 on Christmas Eve.

David: They said, you’re not going to move. Or after that. They’re getting longer than that. But they worked their heads off. The workers didn’t get the flooring done. So nothing else was in place.

Karen: But it’s easy to get upset about that. And the way you don’t do that is say, this is a gift. This is a huge gift. It was paid for really by a lot of our friends, people who love us through, a 60th anniversary gifts that came in. And I need to be grateful for this. And another month, it’ll all be back together again. I know we can stand a month. And I tried to remind myself that it was a mess. But there were a lot of people who were living in messes due to these climate changes, the hurricanes that swept through the South and up through New York State. Demolishing homes, the fires in Colorado. This was not a mess like those people were going through. And if I had a tiny bit of understanding of what it would be like to project my month and a half of mess out to years of mess. That it was a gift that God had given to me. So those are the ways we take the little events of our life or the large ones and don’t sweat them. We take, I guess, the power of positive thinking or believing that God is in control and apply that during those years.

David: I’m with you. I didn’t feel the distress of trying to find things because my study wasn’t touched.

Karen: Your study wasn’t touched. But when Joel moved in, he took over our bedroom. Everything in my life was disrupted. Absolutely everything in my life was disrupted. No, you were lucky. We’ll try and get you next time.

David: I believe it would be praising you. I have thought a lot about aging, however, probably because of this new year. And I’ve said, “Lord, I’m going to make this a good year. In fact, I’m going to, every day this year, praise you for what I know you to be.”

Karen: See how many qualities through the year I can state.

David: I’ve been doing well with that today. In fact, I said, “I praise you that you are eternal.” Or to put it in the context of what we’re talking about, “You are ageless.”

Karen: That’s lovely in context of all of this, isn’t it?

David: “Abraham was 175, but that’s nothing compared to you, Lord. I think it’s wonderful.”

Karen: So if we’re going to age sagely, another principle that we have to learn to live with is to give up any ideas of grandeur. We’re all tempted as humans to sometimes think we’re more important than we really are and to aspire to being known or to do great accomplishments or to receive the adulation or admiration of other folk. And one of the things that we’ve learned is that grandeur isn’t so great. There’s a negative side to being well known or to being highly admired or to be over-appreciated for some of the contributions we’ve made with our lives. We need to take perspective on this idea of accomplishment and just not build it up any more than what it is.

David: I’m not sure that I think that it’s all that great. I look back on my life and I feel very fortunate. I feel I’ve stumbled and bumbled into more things than anything else. Did we actually work on a list together?

Karen: We did. And here’s the number three in that list because it leads off of what you’ve just mentioned. Realize that your impact on earth is brief as it is for everyone in comparison to the eternal one. Yes. The next generation, even in your own family, will not remember what you have done, may not even know what the accomplishments of your life have been. And some of them may not even know your name as the generations roll out.

David: There’s a program they do on national television side of that.

Karen: Yeah, Henry Lewis Gates.

David: Henry Lewis Gates. That’s it.

Karen: Well, he helps people find what their lineage is.

David: Well, he takes famous people. Then he says, how much do you know? And they know very little of their lineage. Like we know very little of our lineage when you come right down to it. But they’re always amazed in terms of, oh my goodness, I’ve inherited a lot that I wasn’t aware of.

Karen: I have an immigrant great grandfather that I knew very little about.

David: Who lived very difficult lives and I’m benefiting from what they did.

Karen: All right. My answer is there’s more slaves. You know, I mean, this is a very moving show that Henry Lewis Gates does with all kinds of people. But most of them do not have a family history of any kind of depth or detail.

David: I don’t think my grandchildren are aware of struggles that we went through or victories that we had. I’m in a position where with perspective, I had a funny thing happen. It was one of our younger grandchildren. And I said to him, “You know, one of these days I’d like for you to go with me to see the Billy Graham Museum.” Because it’s quite well done.

Karen: This is at Wheaton College.

David: Which is a couple of towns away.

Karen: Billy Graham went to Wheaton College.

David: And his response to me was, “Who’s Billy Graham?” Yeah. And I thought to myself, isn’t that interesting? You know, because obviously Billy Graham’s name will continue on.

Karen: And he was one of the most world renowned. God put his hand on him. His ministry was extraordinarily successful. I admire him so much because there was never any scandal that was attached to his ministry or the Billy Graham Organization’s financial management. I mean, it was just an extraordinary life.

David: I think back on PeopleCare and Charles Finney was a name I’ve read an awful lot about. But if I want to talk about Charles Finney, I have to find somebody who knows the name because it’s just gone. So when you talk about age, your story, it may be big at the time that you’re living, but pretty quickly it’s over.

Karen: Another point under aging wisely is age is not a gift that is given to everyone. That’s really strong. Right?

David: That’s right. That’s really true.

Karen:  I don’t think there’s a day that goes by about I don’t thank God for the gift of this day because I realize when my parents died, dad was 69 when he died and mother three years later died at 69. So I went through the years approaching 69 thinking, “Is this a pattern that’s going to repeat itself in the history of my family?” So I’m grateful to have these extra years. I know that dad and mother didn’t wish they had had those extra years of life. Grateful for it.

David: Your dad was a prof that he was the head of the music department in Moody Bible Institute for many, many years. And they encouraged him to stay on a little bit longer and a little longer than he finally retired and then three months he was gone.

Karen: Yeah, three months he was gone. Three months of retirement after years of really faithful work. So wisdom is not only knowing what you know, but knowing what you don’t know.

David: I couldn’t figure that without… Yeah.

Karen: Yeah. You probably contributed that one. You don’t remember that you did.

David: I don’t remember at all. I’m getting old. Well, there’s so much to learn and so many ways to mature. One of the things I’m doing this year, Karen, is that my whole life has been tied up with church work and trying to be involved in a place where the presence of the Lord is really experienced by people. I’ve chosen to be involved in praying for a given church, which is several towns away, but they’re growing.

Karen: Very vibrant.

David: Yeah, it’s growing. And it’s quite exciting because a lot of churches aren’t growing. And when I go there, the music is not the kind of music that I’m accustomed to.

Karen: It’s very loud with a great big band.

David: I would say it’s probably inches closer to the raucous word. That’s not bad because that’s part of the reason people is coming to the church. But I have said to the Lord, “This year I’m not going to analyze all of that. I’m just going to go and now this is hard. I’m going to enter into the way they worship and I’ll just leave it there.” Now for me to say that and then for me to actually begin to live that way is another thing because it’s still hard for me. I find that the older I get, the more I appreciate quiet. And in terms of the church, many times when you think revival thoughts, there is a quietness that settles down.

Karen: So this can’t be programmed or manufactured.

David: It’s the presence of the Lord who is there. And I’ve read about it many times and I’ve experienced it on occasion myself. And I’ve thought how in the world if Jesus himself were to walk in the room, in those places people would get quiet and then they would, some would cry, some would kneel, some would prostrate themselves before him. But I think the music would.

Karen: And the programming because they’ve got another service right afterwards. And so they have a very tight programming. So that’s something that wisdom on our part has said. This is the nature of this church. It’s attracting all kinds of people. It’s a growing congregation and we need to be supportive. And that’s the point I’m making. Wisdom is knowing what you know. We do know a whole variety of things that we prefer as far as church worship is concerned. But knowing what you don’t know, we don’t know the impact of this kind of worship as much as we do other forms that are more familiar to us. I prefer a liturgical church worship, but that’s not what this is at all. We’re trying to be wise in our old age and say this is what it is. God’s hand is on it.

David: And it seems to be that in a way that very much the Lord is there.

Karen: So let’s be a part of it and encourage it and stand firm for it instead of analyzing them.

David: Yeah. And I have to let go of the analyzation. I just have to say, “God, this is where you’ve called me. You’ve given me a ministry that they have asked for in terms of praying for these people.” Yeah, let’s just go with it. That’s part of the aging wisely, I hope.

Karen: I like the scriptures about old age. These are the days of the years of Abraham’s life we started with Abraham. And God says, “I will still be carrying you when you’re old. This is from Isaiah. Your hair will turn gray and I will still carry you. I made you and I will carry you to safety.” Beautiful promise from the scripture for those who are aging. “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear for fear has to do with punishment and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.” You know, we’re not afraid of God’s judgment because we know that he loves us. He’s leading us through our humanity. He doesn’t stand waiting to hit us on the head with a big mallet. “We love because he first loved us.” Isn’t that wonderful? You know, we love others. We love him because he first loved us. “Wisdom belongs to the agent and understanding to the old.

David: I like that word.

Karen: Joke.

David: Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Karen: I wrote out some kind of interesting sayings from the internet. Maybe we can intermix that with some of these scriptures.

David: Okay, I got your page. Old age quotes. Old age comes at a bad time. When you finally know everything, you start to forget everything you know. Let’s go back to the scripture. It’s too close to home. Old age comes at a bad time. When you finally know everything, you start to forget everything you know.

Karen: I’ve got another one from Job. “Wisdom belongs to the aged and understanding to the old.” That’s lovely. Let me promise you.

David: Okay, you want to go to the old age quotes or you want to go to the scripture?

Karen: Let’s do one more. You have a couple more?

David: “Don’t let aging get you down. It’s too hard to get back up.” Been there, done that.

Karen: This is beautiful. “But the Godly will flourish like palm trees and grow strong like the cedars of Lebanon for they are transplanted to the Lord’s own house. They will flourish in the courts of our God. Even in old age, they will still produce fruit. They will remain vital and green. They will declare the Lord is just, He is my rock. There is no evil in Him.” That’s Psalm 92.

David: That sounds like David. Okay, I feel kind of like David the trite going back to these quotes. They’re new to me. I hadn’t seen it before. “We all get heavier as we get older because there’s a lot more information in our heads. So, I’m not fat. I’m really intelligent and my head couldn’t hold anymore. So it started filling up the rest.” That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. That’s terrible. That’s terrible.

Karen: I love this. “Now that I am old and my hair is gray or white in my case, don’t leave me God. I must tell the next generation about your power and greatness. God, your goodness reaches far above the skies. You have done wonderful things. God, there is no one like you.” Beautiful.

David: Okay, so we’re aging. You go back and just look at your life and you say, is this one of the best times? I really feel it is. One of the things I would have missed out on is this prayer group that I’m a part of. I’m a part of several prayer groups, but there’s one that we do by phone. We’ve been meeting probably four years now, I think. And Karen, every time we meet, I say to you, Kali, this is the best time yet.

Karen: I do ask you how did your prayer time go and you say that and then I say, “Well, why was that?” And you just say, “Well, the praying has become so much more mature,” and is that why it’s so good?

David: I would say that I could go to that prayer group and not say a word and just listen to the others as they pray and it would be most meaningful for me, but I feel drawn in to be able to pray. Every so often we’ll have a new person, a new Chinese, and that’s very special. But these are seven friends. I’ve watched others and I’m sure they’ve seen it in my life, a growth in terms of our praying together. We haven’t seen what our passion is, which is a movement of the Holy Spirit in this land.

Karen: But your passion has deepened for that. Isn’t that interesting?

David: Yeah, beautiful.

Karen: Beautiful. This quote is from Philippians and a great promise this is for those of us who are aging, “For I’m sure of this very thing that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”

David: I think in our prayers together we have matured, although we don’t have a set time when we meet regularly. Part of it is our day starts early and there are people, and it seems like the house has a continual flow of people coming through it. But I guess one of the things I’d like to say in this new year as well is that I want to find more time to pray with you.

Karen: Well, that sounds good.

David: Yeah, you look forward to overtures I make, okay?

Karen: Okay, we’ll see if we can set it maybe the night before. When will we have a prayer time together tomorrow and just get it in the calendar? I think that would be a good kind of a vow to have for this new year of 2022.

David: God should be thanked for the gift of old age. I know that privately I do that. How about you?

Karen: Yeah, I do. I thank Him for good and healthy years. I mean, so many people as they age, they have physical limitations and we may as well eventually, but we haven’t so far and we’re highly functional and learning that we can’t do as much as we used to have nor are we supposed to and so there are limits and we’re respecting them. I’d like this scripture. It’s a great promise from 1 Corinthians. “He will strengthen you to the end so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful by whom you are called into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”

David: Thank you, Lord. I thank you that if I hadn’t been given the years you’ve given to me, I wouldn’t have learned some of the lessons I’ve learned. I wouldn’t have known the depth that I know in my life at this time. I wouldn’t have had our relationship strengthened over time. You and I Karen, that’s a gift from the Lord. If one of us had died, you know, say 10 years ago, it would have been premature. We wouldn’t have known the days that we learned.

Karen: Well, we wouldn’t have learned the lessons of these last 10 years that we have learned with one another. Yeah. Should have been of the whole old age.

David: You know, I thank you for old age. I haven’t gotten to the place where I’m dottering. I haven’t gotten to the place where I’m a burden to somebody. I haven’t gotten to the place where I no longer can be productive. So, all those are areas where just my heart is so full. I would say, “Lord, if you asked me if I want to live as old as Abraham was, I would say no.”

Karen: No, thank you.

David: That’s a little bit more than I can handle. But if another five, 10 years, whatever, 10, that’s a pretty long, I don’t know. But I’m just grateful. I’m grateful for today. And I’m grateful that I can share with you.

Karen: So we’re saying basically, don’t dread old age if you’re not there yet. Look forward to it and work toward making it the best time of your life. If God so grants you those extra years, the very best time of your life.

David: Yeah, I’m satisfied.

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