David: Karen, I’m going to say someone’s name. You will know the name and I want you to tell me. In just a few words, what images come to mind when you hear who that person is. Okay. I’m ready. Okay. The name is Idi Amin.

Karen: Oh my goodness. A brutal, ruthless dictator in Uganda.

David: Have any idea how long ago?

Karen: I’d have to do some math in my head. Do you know off the top of your head?

David: No, I looked it up.

Karen: Okay. How long ago was it?

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David: Idi Amin, Karen, was president of Uganda, 1971 to 79. He had taken over in a coup. He deposed the guy he used to be under. Amin’s background was military but he was a thug. It’s probably the best way to put it. Over 300,000 people were killed or tortured.

Karen: Oh my goodness. That was Uganda people?

David: People from Uganda. I don’t have anything really good to say about him. He didn’t die until 2003.

Karen: He’d fled by that time.

David: He fled to Saudi Arabia and he had all kind of money.

Karen: Yeah, he’d been a king of graft.
David: Anyway, we are talking about him because we’re going to listen to an interview I had the privilege of doing with Bishop Festo Kivengere who was in Uganda and had to flee for his life. Actually, the Archbishop had been murdered by an African man. Beautiful people. Bishop Festo Kivengere. He was told by the people one bishop being killed by Idi Amin is enough.

Karen: That’s enough. You got to leave.

David: Yeah. And so, he was driven by car, south he was going to go into Rwanda. Well, he’ll talk about that. Walking in the night through the mountains to get out of the country. It was about a year later he was in this area and I was able to interview him. And again, probably just in that interview people will hear what was going on. But this was still fresh with him. He had been traveling the world telling what was going on. So, we’re going back in terms of a broadcast to 1978, which was about a year after again, he had come out of Uganda. We’ll hear another familiar voice before Festo comes out of that Ted Seelye.

Karen: He used to be our announcer on the Chapel of the Air broadcast.

David: Yeah. Okay. We’ll switch to that recording now.

Ted Seelye: Hello and welcome to the Chapel of the Air. Yesterday we had the privilege of introducing to you an outstanding African church leader, Bishop Festo Kivengere, who told about conditions in troubled Uganda. Today he’ll be sharing the story of his own escape from Uganda and some of his experiences since that time. Here’s David Mains with another thrilling interview in this series of two mind and heart expanding broadcasts with this brother in Christ.

David: Thank you, Ted. And once again, hello to you, my good friend. Seated with us in the studio, as most of you know from our announcements, is Bishop Festo Kivengere of Uganda in Africa, a country ruled by Idi Amin, and presently a place of turmoil for believers. Yesterday we talked extensively about Uganda. This visit, Bishop, I’d like to hear more about you. Did God teach you any lessons through this time of fire you could share with our Chapel family?

Bishop Kivengere: Yes, indeed. It has been a time of learning and re-learning lessons I thought I knew. One of the great lessons I’ve been learning is the sweetness of the Lord Jesus when everything round you sounds or tastes bitter.

In a sense, I’ve been learning that in a much deeper way. When I left my country under pressure of being eliminated with my dear wife, and trekking through the mountains of southern Uganda, covered by the darkness of the night, and crossing into the neighboring state was a very difficult experience. Living the people you love, leaving some relatives, and knowing in your heart that there was no reason why you should leave your ministry, 850 churches, quarter of a million Christians in that particular area. And yet I felt God was with me. The Lord Jesus was with us as we trekked our way, rather tired and lonely. But as I said, Christian love, for example, a lady at whose house we knocked in the village after midnight, showing us the paths climbing the mountains and carrying her baby on her back and a suitcase on her head, without her knowledge in order that she may help us to get on.

Another deep lesson has been, how do you react to a man like Idi Amin, from whom I had to escape, under whom my dear Archbishop died, and under whom men of my countrymen, men with whom I prayed before a firing squad in 1973, how do you react to that man? Of course, naturally my tendency was to feel bitter. And this is the lesson out of which came my little book called I Love Idi Amin. I had to learn, or relearn, the deep meaning of love. It was during Easter last year that was after I had escaped, because I left my country in February, was in London in a church, when the Spirit of God brought very clearly to my notice in my heart that I had developed a hardened attitude towards the man who was persecuting me.

And therefore, I was beginning to lose what it takes to be a minister of reconciliation. I was entering the prisoner of an unforgiving spirit. The Lord released me, very simply through those words which you are familiar with, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”

I listened, they flashed into my heart, the Spirit of God began the process of releasing me from bitterness. I cannot tell you what that has meant. I was losing out. I could never have communicated the gospel within, with that atmosphere of bitterness, resentment growing on me. So, I thank God that although I ran away from Amin, yet God has used him to teach me the deep meaning of how to love a man who is persecuting you or threatening your life.

David: Thank you so much for sharing. I think that maybe not nearly to the degree you’ve gone through, but it’s just a common part of life to have people hurt us and take advantage of us. And there many people I think who will be helped by what you’ve expressed. You’ve kind of turned your world upside down, or the Lord has psychologically you were someone who was hunted, and now you’re almost a hero in many ways to Christians around the world. What’s that done to you emotionally?

Bishop Kivengere: That also is something that needs his hand. Fame is very easy to swallow, but very difficult to live with. And therefore, one has to take this kind of experience of being known everywhere, of being looked up to, to carefree for the balance, so that whatever has happened to my life may be a platform not for this man called Festo Kivengere, but for the man called Jesus Christ. He really deserves that.

I don’t. My duty should be what my dear brother, a bishop, some years back, when he was about to be consecrated bishop in the language of the Episcopal Jargon in Uganda, he said to the brethren, “You will see me on Sunday. You’ll see other bishops putting beautiful robes on me. And that may frighten you,” he said. “You may think I’ve become very important,” but he said, “remember the story of the donkey. They put their garments on the donkey. For the first time, the donkey was clothed in beautiful garments. The donkey walked on garments too.” But he said, “Underneath the garments was a donkey.” So he said, “When you see the robes being put on me, remember I am the donkey. My responsibility is to carry my Lord downtown.” And let me say here, what has happened to me and my dear wife and among my dear brethren, we’d covet that it be a means by which the Lord Jesus is carried downtown.

David: Yes, very, very fine. Traveling is usually enlightening and you’ve done a great deal of that. It gives you new perspectives. As you look back at the things you’ve learned from your traveling, would you have acted differently or done things differently while you were in Uganda?

Bishop Kivengere: Not quite. My travels have been great lessons too because you keep meeting people of all kinds with different reactions. And these are an opportunity to widen your horizon, soften your approach to different aspects of life.

And of course, they give God an opportunity to teach you deep lessons. I wouldn’t have really acted otherwise had I remained in Uganda because I was actually three quarters of the time outside Uganda and a quarter of the time in Uganda before these experiences took place.

David: Do you see yourself, Bishop, as somewhat an Alexander *** who has this commitment to tell for the people who still remain in the difficulty experienced what it’s really like? Or is there a different burden than that you carry?

Bishop Kivengere: My great burden is to share with people what God can do when His people are under pressure. So that the Christian community may rediscover the secret of living, that it isn’t just when times are peaceful and prosperous, but that the grace of God gives God’s people that extra during their times of strain and stress. This really is the burden that I feel I should share, that God’s people should learn deep lessons of reconciling love when they are exposed to danger, to bitterness, and to persecution.

David: Is that a prophetic word in your mind to say the Christian church in America possibly?

Bishop Kivengere: Yes, indeed. I look at the church in America as a great community with tremendous potentiality in the world. But there is a tendency to sleep on prosperity. The good things of the Lord can be misused as pillows on which just to enjoy yourself, instead of as opportunities for which one should be humbly grateful to the Lord, and therefore use the time of prosperity and peace as a time for deepening, as a time for learning lessons of humanity, as a time when the heart should be more sensitive to the suffering which is in the world elsewhere, so that then the church in America can really minister to the world which is now being shattered, the world of Africa, the world of Asia, the world of Eastern Europe.

David: Talk to us some about the church in Africa. We hear reports that there’s a great moving of God all across that continent. Can you give us a rundown on that?

Bishop Kivengere: Yes, just briefly, of course, it is very difficult to give you a reasonable picture, but I can tell you that it is exciting today for a Christian in Africa, particularly a Christian who is sharing his faith, because you see everywhere you go, Uganda included, people crowd to hear the Bible. I’ve never seen anything like it. Recently, a reporter went to Uganda from Australia. I was speaking in Australia last month, and the reporter went to interview President Amin, and among the things he did was to see what was going on in the churches in Uganda. Of course, he only visited a few around Kampala City, but he tells in a tape he has now sent to me. He says, “Everywhere I went, churches were packed out to overflowing.” And he said, “When I asked people, ‘Is it because it is Easter? Is it because it is this day?’” They said, “No, no, no, this is what it is everywhere in the country every Sunday.” And now you can say that in Kenya. I was in Nairobi, and one leading man, a pastor and a great Bible teacher in Kenya said to the committee which is preparing a mission for the Nairobi City, and he said, “Our problem in Nairobi, every church is too small for the congregation, every church.”

David: That’s a great problem to have, isn’t it? It sounds as though it’s almost revival. Some of what I read from your writings talk to that, and I heard excellent reports of your ministry down in Quito, Ecuador when you were with the people of HCJB. There was a real moving of the Lord at that time.

Bishop Kivengere: Yes, indeed. To me, it was fresh air, because this is the kind of thing we have seen. God’s renewing grace visited the churches in East Africa, starting in Uganda, in our church, as far back as 1930. And from 1930 to where I am today, we have seen some remarkable experiences of God’s people. A church is turned completely upside down and right side up.

David: That’s what we look for here in this land. That’s what many of us pray toward. Bishop, thank you so much from a very large number of people in our Chapel of the Air family in America and many places beyond. And may you sense the hand of God on your life in a renewed way as a result of the faithful prayers of our people.

David: We were so fortunate. Chicago was a good location, because all these people would come through Chicago. We had a national ministry on many, many stations.

Karen: We were able to expose a lot of these people to Christian listeners all across the country. We had an estimated two million listeners a day. So, it was a joy to be able to say, this is a worldwide leader who has admired and respected all the world. I think it was called the Billy Graham of Africa, wasn’t it?

David: That’s correct. Yes. I look at that, Karen, and I have great satisfaction in terms of having asked the right questions. When I interviewed people, it was, how do I ask the question that is going to get at what really is going to be able to let this person say what that person wants to say or feels called a God even to say?

Karen: And I want to make a note of that, because you and I have been on the other end of interviews in situations all across the country, because we were writing books and traveling and speaking in ministries in the inner city. And often you go into a studio and the person who was interviewing you had maybe read the back cover copy of your book, but had not done any preparation as far as asking really good questions. So, you’re sitting there thinking as they toss off the first non-interesting question, the question that you would consider non-viable. How do I turn this interview to a place where I’m really focused on the thing I’m here to focus on? So, you’re having to lead your interview in an odd way to, you know, they ask a question, you say, that’s a really good question. But the thing I want to talk about is stuff like that. This is, you know, ridiculous, actually.

David: The matter of asking good questions somehow related to the very basic feeling people in the industry had, like, I had good friends and I can highly these people and they had major ministries, but their attitude was more, “We’ll just see where the conversation goes.” And with a 12-minute time in that quarter of a hour, yes, I didn’t have that time. I had to get right at it. And he answered those questions so beautifully.

Karen: So what you’re saying that is this is an example of one of those interviews where you had prepped questions, not everyone’s going to converse with the Festo Kivengeres of the world, but everyone who comes into our lives is important in the eyes of God.

David: I think Karen, just the part of socializing, much of getting to know people, is asking the right questions. I don’t know if they’ve ever been in a situation where someone says, “Oh, I didn’t know that.” You know, when somebody’s talking. We had a conversation with dear friends just about a month ago. You’ll recall this. And I asked in the process of that evening, “How would you do things differently if you could relive your life?” And it was a long time of conversation to the people that were fascinating and allowed me to know better than I’ve ever known them before by that simple question. So, asking those good questions, I think it’s a gift, but it’s the same time it’s a practice that people need to get into.

Karen: I also think that good question asking often is inspired by the Holy Spirit. I mean, a question will rise in me and I often think, “Where did that thing come from?” But you ask it and then all of a sudden you have a whole life that’s open to you in a way that you wouldn’t have if that question hadn’t been posed.

So, what we want to do is encourage people. Most of us don’t have now, but with the great leaders of the world. But every person you meet is extraordinarily important in the eyes of God. And when they feel like they have been heard and listened to, someone is interested in enough to sit down and say, tell me who you are. And then you give them questions that they can work with that reveal who they are. There’s a moment of meaning there that I think goes deeper than just social discourse. It’s really something that God provides so that we can know one another in the best of the intimate kinds of ways where you say, “Wow, that person is something else.”

David: I’ve found over the years that it’s helpful even when you’re driving. Say somebody’s invited you for dinner and driving there, to us converse and say, “What’s a good question we can ask these people that will help us get to know them better?” We come up with those questions and somehow in the course of the night, you throw it out and then all of a sudden you have a wonderful, wonderful…

Karen: Yeah, it’s extraordinary. What happens. I think that one of the principles that sits behind this conversation we’re having about asking good questions is that everyone wants to be known. That is a deep desire that’s been put into everyone’s heart. I want to be known for who I am. And sometimes I’m able to articulate better who I am when people care enough about me to ask me those questions that help me reveal to them, but also to myself. What is going on in my life at that point in time, what I’m striving to become.

In fact, David, the very first question that was asked in the Old Testament was one asked by God of Adam and Eve in the garden.

David: Interesting.

Karen: Do you know what it was?

David: Tell me.

Karen: Where are you?

David: Oh, yeah, of course.
Karen: An existential question, one that crosses time, crosses geographies, crosses languages. Where are you? Where are you? I mean, how many times do we have people say to us, “Where are you in your life right now?” That’s exactly what that question was. It was modeled right in Genesis.

David: The first one to your question is not very often do people ask us that? Where are you in your life?

Karen: Yeah, where are you in your life now?

David: Jesus asks questions a lot. Like the parable of the Good Samaritan. “Who was the neighbor in my story?” One of those neat times is Jesus asking his disciples, “Who do people say that I am? Now, who do you say that I am?” That was an incredible revealing.

Karen: Yeah, huge feeling for those. He didn’t need to know. Jesus didn’t need to know who people said that he was. He needed those disciples to think about it. And then to contrast to the intellectual exercise of contrasting with what they knew Jesus to be important.

David: Most people have a lot to share that’s truly helpful if you just work at asking the right questions. So what I’ve done is to open a topic here. And we haven’t gotten very far in it. But I would like to suggest that the next time we meet and record another podcast, we go back to that same sentence and give it a little bit more substance than we’re doing now and give examples of good questions. And times when a good question just opened up someone and became a wonderful friend.

Karen: So we would right now suggest to our listeners that they just take out a pencil and paper and write down some questions that they think would be good questions to ask in the next social environment they find themselves in.

David: Ok, then we will figure out how to put this all together in such a way that it’s truly helpful and revealing and beneficial.

Outgo: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address: hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all lowercase letters. hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2021 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.