
July 10, 2024
Episode #255
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David and Karen Mains discuss how the church is viewed in America and consider what can be done to bring about a new relevancy within the church and its people, particularly as they approach the last years of their lives.
Episode Transcript
David: I remain in active ministry because God continues to fill my mind with worthy projects to grant me good health and a sound mind plus supportive friends who provide for my basic financial needs. So, I’m in a place where I still have that wonderful privilege.
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David: To me, Karen, Joe Biden, and Donald Trump are not really all that old.
Karen: And that’s because on the first Tuesday in August, my husband, that means you, will reach the ripe old age of 88.
David: Oh my gosh.
Karen: As of this recording, that’s older than either of the front-running American presidential candidates.
Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.
Karen: People wonder how much longer the two of us are going to keep going. I wonder if you could answer that question for them, David.
David: What’s my response? I struggle with that, Karen. I am saying that I am very soon going to be 88 years old. And in these last months and years, it is dawning on me more and more that I’m old.
You know, that’s just a given that I need to work with. What I’m struggling with is: how do I focus the last years that I have in the best possible way as a contributor to the problems that I see in the land, especially as it relates to the local church? I would say, and I believe you would agree with me, that the church as a whole in America is struggling. There needs to be a massive movement that catches somehow that the Lord is in, or otherwise, the future of the church in America, and I’m not able to speak about what it’s like in Africa or India or Europe, whatever, but its influence is waning and we’re losing the new generation.
Are there exceptions? Well, how would you answer that?
Karen: Well, there are. We have adult grandchildren who are in exceptional churches. I mean, that’s why they’re there. What I like about it is the early midlife pastor that they have is pulling them into areas of responsibility. So, that’s exciting to us. In fact, all of our adult grandchildren, as far as we know, are regular attendants for the most part in their local churches. So anyway, but we’re looking through some sort of prophetic lens at the work of God in the country. And when we had the broadcast, which was a daily, but we did have estimated two million listeners a day, you felt like you were being impactful. And then we had pastors’ conferences where we were involving a good 4,000 pastors. Add them all up, it was 20,000 pastors.
That’s influence, but we do not have that these days. So, we’re wondering, well, how do we use the last years of our lives in the most crucial way that we possibly can?
David: I would narrow it down even more and say, how do we determine the audience that we want to reach? Is it the lay people we want to speak to in terms of where the church is as we understand it? Or is it the pastors? I would say the more vital of those groups would be ministers, but lay people are involved as well.
Karen: They need to be involved. And that’s been one of the great problems that we have identified over the years, that the things that are being preached from the pulpit are not preached in an effective communicative way that first of all, includes lay people in the planning of feedback to the proposed sermon. And then planning the services so it comes out of an invited lay initiative.
David: There must be the ability to self-critique.
Karen: Right.
David: This is working, or it isn’t working. I would say that with rare exceptions, there are incredible churches throughout the land.
Karen: And the Lord has raised up many, and they have larger tents than they do still have a young adult population for sure.
David: But if you say looking at the country as a whole, the religious voice is more and more irrelevant to most people.
Karen: Right.
David: And even the people who are in sometimes really good churches, when you say, “How are you going to be different having attended this morning?” you’re not getting the kind of answers that you’re looking for.
Karen: Well, you might be even more specific. How did your pastor’s sermon this last Sunday affect your life in any way that was life changing? Or another question is, what did your pastor preach about by Wednesday? Do they know? I mean, surveys show that a lot of them don’t remember the sermon by the time they get to cars in the parking lot. It’s done.
David: Yes, I’ve been in literally hundreds of those services. Why that is, I don’t know. If I were the pastor, would they be thinking about it? I think they would be irritated.
Karen: That’s a good response.
David: It is a good response. But that trend and their church buildings all across this country, I mean, there are thousands of them that are dying, that are becoming difficult things to deal with because what do we do with this whole church building? It’s worth a lot of money, but the church is not going to be around that much longer.
Karen: You have the sanctuaries on Sunday morning or sometimes 20 people.
David: And there is no way at present that I can see that people are invited into the process of saying, “What do we need to do?” The services go on and people say that was interesting.
So, we’re a part of the problem. I have to say then, what group do I want to address? What problems am I trying to relate to? I am showing signs of deterioration. I’m kind of funny because I can’t remember the names of the people. You know, they come up and I say, “Okay, now, how do I write that down on my Bible?” And I notes and then I have to walk away and then come back again because I know what the person’s name is. It’s really kind of sad and it’s kind of silly, but that’s just life.
What I’m saying is that for both of us, we have to now determine what is our topmost priority so that we can pull that off to the best of our ability.
Karen: What life we have.
David: What life we have.
Karen: Just insert that, you know, I have memory lapses. There’s definitely an aging process there and I say, “Well, it’s not my memory that’s bad. It’s my retrieval system, that’s slow.”
And the truth is, if I just wait a little bit, that retrieval system does throw up the concept or the answer or the idea or the name. When I was younger, I mean…
David: …you didn’t even think about things. Where did I put such and such? Oh, I remember I put it there and you just go back and do it. But now it’s you’re finding that it’s not there like it used to.
Karen: Yeah, like I said, the retrieval system is slower than monitoring system, whatever. But what do we do with this passion that we have? And this has been a long-term passion that you’ve had. You were absolutely remarkable in the things that you allowed yourself to learn. I mean, you invited your parishioners to help you in your learning process as far as how you made your sermon relatable to the reality because they… you would invite what?
David: It’s a long process to go through and it’ll be different for different ministers. But the question is, do we just say now we’re not who we used to be and then…
Karen: …don’t do anything about it?
David: There is a certain fading. You’re not in a position where you say, “I’d like to do three or four more books before I die.” If you think that then you’re Lulu land.
Karen: Yeah.
David: That’s not going to happen.
Karen: Yeah, and I’m not being truthful.
David: And I’m in the same situation. Say, I can address certain problems but there’s others I can’t. So, I’m at that place of saying, “Who is the group that I want to target?” I know that’s the pulpit because preaching is becoming more and more irrelevant, whether it’s we’re doing it wrong or whatever. It’s not touching people in a profound manner.
Is that an overstatement? Probably because there are exceptional ministers who speak. But for the most part, it is fair to say that a lot of people who go to church and probably the majority of people who go to church, when they leave, if you would ask them, “How are you going to be different as a result of attending this service and what changes will you make?” Most of them are going to say, “I don’t think in those terms.”
Karen: I haven’t thought that through.
David: Yeah.
Karen: And then they forget, and they get wrong. Or they don’t have the challenge to be home with them in some tangible way. That reminds them that they need to go before the Lord and say, “Do I have a problem with what was preached on this last Sunday?” If they can, you know, and remember what was preached on. What is it that you and the Holy Spirit want me to change in my life?
David: I would answer the question of ourselves. Are we going to continue to do this? I will be 88. That’s pretty old. In fact, for the first time I’m beginning to regularly think in my mind, I am really an old man, and I can tell myself how I am diminished.
Fortunately, my profession was not baseball playing because I had to figure out what I’m going to do to eat. A long time ago, the ministry is a lot nicer. But at the same time, I do not believe that I’m in a position where I could in all honesty say, “Yeah, I can pastor that church.” I’m past that time. So, I wrote down how to answer that question.
Karen: Okay.
David: I remain in active ministry because God continues to fill my mind with worthy projects to grant me good health and a sound mind plus supportive friends who provide for my basic financial needs. So, I’m in a place where I still have that wonderful privilege. If I say it plural, so we’re talking the two of us, we remain in active ministry because God continues to fill our minds with worthy projects to grant us good health and sound minds plus supportive friends who provide for our basic financial needs.
So, I’ll go on as long as that’s possible. If the support stops, then I need to say I got to get a paper route or something that I can do. Yeah, I don’t care what it is. I’m not at that place yet. And I enjoy immensely being an ordained minister. That brings me great joy. And you enjoy being the wife of an ordained minister.
Karen: I love it. I look at our marriage. It’s been 63 years now. As a team marriage, we teamed in our marriage and in ministry together. We always have. It’s an extraordinary privilege. And David, you have supported me in ways that are extraordinary for a husband to do. I mean, when you hit the daily broadcast, the Chapel of the Air, you were invited to go on a six-week trip with Food for the Hungry to go through the refugee camps…
David: …the refugee camps of the world.
Karen: And you said, I can’t leave because I have the broadcast that I have to take care of. So, what happened then says goodbye to his wife, knowing he’s in charge of four kids, one of whom came down with chickenpox the day after I did.
David: Yeah, that was funny.
Karen: And we had friends who stepped in and helped. But that’s just very, very unusual. So, you’ve been an extraordinarily supportive husband and you’ve supported me in my writing.
Before I go, our son Jeremy Mains was a wonderful artist. He was 42 when he died. It would be 10 years this last November. And he decided that there were enough artists in the world. The world didn’t need any more artists. But what they needed were people who cared for other people. So, he became an immigration reform expert. Now there is a topic that gets mentioned as people talk about the immigration situation, mostly that’s being stimulated by people coming across the Mexican border. And it’s called comprehensive immigration reform. And that’s truly what we need.
David: Yeah, it is, right.
Karen: It’s truly what we need.
David: And everyone knows that.
Karen: Everyone knows that. But it’s difficult to do. And most people can’t tell you what that comprehensive immigration reform action, what details are all in it. But Jeremy was on top of it.
So, I’m using this last book, which is probably the last book I ever write, Lessons in Love Learned from a Dying Son, that will go then into what that immigration reform is all about. Now he was copious in keeping his thoughts on paper. And so I’m hoping I can go back into those files with his wonderful wife, Angela Mains, the wonderful woman, who I call that all the time, raising three kids by herself. That book then will be, I’m pretty sure, the last one I write. And yet I want to get it done. I want to get it done before I am diminished so much mentally that I can’t get my thoughts together. So that’s my passion and my prleasure.
David: I’m laser focused now on my head, saying how do we resolve the issue of church being irrelevant? And that means changes in terms of us and at the same time, changes that are essential to the whole process of the church coming together on Sunday and then going out. And the problem being, they’re just the same as when they came. They heard but they didn’t hear. Or otherwise, whatever was said wasn’t said in a way that touched their lives. And how do we turn that around? That’s going to take some really good thinking. And I want to be a part of that process. I don’t think that I will be the voice people will listen to. In fact, I don’t think even just on my own. I can be helpful, but I can build a team that can be helpful.
Karen: Well, and because we have a media background and have had lots of experience in media, we also have a son who was a film student and has been awarded five Emmys for documentary work. We think he can at least be an advisor. However, our age set of people who are in the old of it, and then we have some young girls in our family who are in the ministry. My brother is 10 years younger and he has applied your sermon approach to two very effective church ministries. We will be inviting them and my sister and my brother-in-law who are…
David: And their marriage background in church things.
Karen: Yeah, but there’s just very well connected with influencers and pastors all over the country. Inviting them to brainstorm what this platform should look like. And we’re suspecting it will be a standing product of some visual kind, some film work or teaching video or whatever that then can be used easily in individual churches with a response device. Where the lay people in the congregation respond to what’s presented in that visual presentation.
Early. This is very early thinking. This is a burden the Lord has put on you, I can tell. Because you’re more passionate about this than you have been about many things in the last, let’s say, three or four years. This is compelling to you.
David: I thank the Lord for churches that are vital and exciting. I haven’t seen what it does in people’s lives to the degree that it’s going to have to touch lives in a profound way across this country. It’s on my mind all the time. And that means I’m in conversations about this all the time. And I think all that is good. But it also means that our lives are being disrupted by our own thoughts as to what the Lord might want us to do. Maybe I do nothing but bring the people together who have solutions to those problems.
Karen: Our own position to influence.
David: But I know that if this doesn’t change and people come to church on Sunday, they see people they like. They go out to lunch afterward. And there isn’t that sense of, did God make His presence known? Did He touch lives in a profound way?
Karen: A way that I will be profound. And then you expect for the classic signs of revival to begin to work, as you have said many times. Before a revival, there’s always some person or small group of people who are called the consistent fervent prayer. And then that begins to grow. And the stories of revival that you’ve worked on, and you have recorded in a book that’s in manuscript form now are powerful examples. And I know that there are people who are called to prayer because we get letters from them every now and then. Now one of the things that we are handling in our response, we figure we have 200 to 300 listeners to the podcast, is the loss of the younger generation. You are praying regularly for those people who have sent those.
David: They’re heart-breaking. People send me their prayer request and they’ll say pray for it and then they name it. And He’s 23. He’s left the faith. I don’t know how it happened, but the faith is no longer relevant to my children. I’m not saying mine, but to these people who write, please pray. You can almost feel the sobbing that is going on. There’s heart-breaking.
Karen: You have personal ministries. These days is to pray for listeners who have this painful realization that…
David: Yeah, I’m getting older. I’m less influential on my children or my grandchildren. They’ve left the church.
Karen: They’ve left the faith. They’ve turned their back on Christianity.
David: They’re not opposed to it. They just think it’s irrelevant a lot of times. And they’re influenced profoundly by the culture that’s going on.
Karen, we’re not the only people who are wrestling with this. It’s a painful conversation and it brings you to tears very quickly because you’re talking about people you dearly, dearly love and you have to be careful even how you bring up the topic. So why am I saying all this? I’m saying that I can’t be the same person I was two years ago or five years ago, certainly not 50 years ago. I’m a different person now, but how do I maximize who I am and what I know? And what steps of faith the Lord would have us take? We’re in that turmoil. It’s not a bad turmoil, but I don’t know the answer to all of this. And I’m always aware that who I am is being diminished just by the aging process.
When the debate happened, both candidates for presidency are old. They’re in a position where this is my last chance to do what I feel called to do. I think both the men would say that’s what our words are.
On a much smaller scale, but on a much more significant scale as far as the spiritual matters are concerned, that’s where I am and it’s where you are. And hopefully the Lord will give us peace and give us direction. But it’s a struggle.
Karen: Yeah, and we would appreciate our listeners’ prayers that we will end well.
David: And lessons that I learned 30 years ago, whatever, may not be relevant now, but I want to be thinking in those terms. How do I position myself? How do you position yourself to be the most effective? Because these are our last crack at this. And we’re saying, Lord, have mercy. You don’t want to screw up now.
Karen: Yeah, you’re in tears.
David: Yeah. And you don’t want to become a complainer.
Karen: Yeah.
David: You don’t want to get a finger pointer or someone who diminishes someone’s faith because it’s something you said or did. That’s not where you are. You’re just saying, Lord, have mercy.
We need your prayers, I think, all over this country. There is our generation that says, you got one more chance. Let’s make the best use of it possible. That’s uncomfortable in yet in some ways it’s exciting.
Karen: Yeah.
David: But it means you have to be willing to say, “I’m holding on tightly and I can’t do that anymore.” I got to open my hands, say, “Lord, it’s all yours. Change it all around if you want. But don’t let me go too far down the path. That’s the wrong path. I want you to be close and I want you to speak very clearly during these days. Jesus, have mercy. Jesus, have mercy on your church, on this country that is desperately needing you.” It’s my prayer. Yeah.
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