David:          Karen in this visit I want to talk with you about a task I believe God has asked me to take on before I call it quits.

Karen:          Before you call it quits? What does that mean before you retire or before you die?

David:          Yeah, probably I’m not sure what I mean.

Karen:          We don’t really retire.

David:          It could be either, I guess. But before I call it quits, I believe God has made it plain to me that he has assigned me with one probably final strategic task.

Intro:             Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:          In my lifetime Karen, the Lord has blessed me in many ways. One that I particularly like is that I have known some of the finest preachers that one could possibly say “I’d like to know that individual more.” I’m just thinking of the top of my head. Luis Palau, he was very friendly. Steven Olford, he was at the house. I saw him because we lived in the same area. Alan Redpath, Leonard Ravenhill, Francis Schaefer…

Karen:          Or even kind of informal mentors and that they were available to you.

David:          Yeah.

Karen:          We used to have monthly broadcast.

David:          The broadcast was the key. They all wanted to have that exposure, and they were all very gracious. I can’t think of anybody because we were on a lot of… we’re on 500 stations around the country. If I would say I’d like to do a series of programs we did, they were very open to that.

Karen:          And at this time, we were still needing to go into the studio to record. And so that would be when they were in town or around town Chicago or the Wheaton area; and they were gracious about that. They’d always made themselves available. Lovely, lovely people.

David:          Yeah, that was a real joy to me. And it’s there your kind of an in-group in a sense because there are people who make their living by talking. More specifically, they want to be able to represent God’s thoughts to those who are paying attention to what they’re saying. It was a really good thing. Just recently, one of the best in the whole field in my mind was KP Yohannan. He was international obviously. He was raised in India; learned his English, came over here.  Build a massive…

Karen:          Started Gospel for Asia was massive.

David:          Yeah.

Karen:          He was hit by a car as he was walking and then just as last what two months

David:          Yeah, it’s still too fresh to even…

Karen:          …talk about.

David:          Yeah. He had this amazing ability. He had an accent because he was not raised in the States.

Karen:          Well, he was an Indian. And of course, there was part of the…

David:          It was charming

Karen:          …at least English Empire. The British Empire. So, everyone spoke English.

David:          Can I hear him preach in India and I heard him preach here? I remember driving down to Chicago. I knew he’s in town, was preaching at Woody Memorial Church, which is a very large…

Karen:          Established historic church.

David:          Yeah, and I could tell that whole Congregation within a matter of minutes, they were all leaning in.

Karen:          Yeah

David:          To listen to what he was saying. He was masterful. I remember times in India, one specific time, there were probably 300 pastors and their wives. The wives all sit on one side of the… it wasn’t an auditorium, because auditoriums are enclosed. It was like a tent although it had a metal top. And I was sitting on the platform, I had spoken very briefly. And then he came on. As he was preaching, I heard this sound, and I could look outside because there were no walls or just a top. I thought it must be thunder outside. It was distant, but it was growing louder. And then doesn’t look like it’s going to rain. It was a hot day, in fact, in Southern India. There and then, Karen, all of a sudden it dawned on me, what I was hearing was the people. They were groaning. He would finish it like a paragraph. He was speaking in a language I didn’t understand that he would finish a paragraph and then, “ooohhh…ohhh…oooiiii”

And then but many, many voices doing that. Then I realized they were following him. And later, as I talked to him, he said, “I was talking about leaving your good jobs here in Southern India and going as missionaries to Northern India where Christ has a need to be preached at all.

When he gave the invitation, men and women just stream forward. Almost instantly, there were more people at the front. Yeah, there were all the aisles were filled. There was a hollering that was going on. Then, in the back a man sitting next to me on the platform said, “This gentleman wants to come forward, but his father is holding on to him because his father doesn’t want him to give up all the positions that he has. It’s a very good government position. But it was a powerful, powerful presentation. I thought wow I’m so glad just to be able to be here and see this.

Karen:          What do you feel like the last task might be in your life because you’re in your late 80s and you’re doing really well. You’re very healthy for me, at your age, and your mind is good.

David:          I’m concerned about the preaching in the churches of the land. I think that ministers could be benefited in a marvelous way if they just had the same kind of access to some preachers who just naturally are very good at it. And what these people would converse together, and we could record those times on a podcast.

Karen:          So, one of the great dilemmas of the American nation is that so many of our churches are closing their doors. They have been reduced to minimal congregations that even can’t keep part-time preacher on staff or pay for it or even keep the buildings up. So, we’re watching this decline. The Pew Foundation gives reports on various statistics we’re dealing with America.

David:          It’s not only churches closing many, but many ministers leaving…

Karen:          …leaving the ministry. Yeah, so that I think is your last sort of passion is how can that be corrected? And you’ve done in your past when we had the radio broadcast, and we were working with thousands of pastors. You had a significant role in teaching them. I remember one letter… I would just run into it in the files the other day… and it was written from a parishioner and said, “I just want to thank you so much since my pastor attended your conference, he’s been a hundred percent improved in his preaching and it’s just making a huge difference in in our church.”

David:          The privileges I had, by being in close proximity and talking about preaching with these different individuals, I wish other people had that same privilege. I know there are ministers I’ve come across during all these years I’ve been in preaching, that they would be very open to sharing those thoughts. It’s just not a normal way of coming together. My thought is that I put together a list of 15 extraordinary communicator, and they may not all be pastors either. I can think of somebody who has for a number of years been the chaplain at a retirement home. Think of another pastor who’s retired and…

Karen:          …. working with hospice? Is that what you are thinking?

David:          And he’s seen the world through different eyes than I do. And he has figured out the messages that are very helpful to those situations. They have much they could contribute to a discussion as to how to communicate most effectively with people. I put together a list of 15. I know Dean’s recording us and I don’t want him to know that I have his name on the list. Dean is a marvelous, marvelous lay preacher. In fact, Dean was a communicator, huge in terms of the industry. And I remember Dean saying, “Yeah I know what that was like when you walk by, and people say there goes Dean Wilson.”

Karen:          Yeah.

David:          But he has much to contribute from a lay perspective and I’m trying to think of these people who are remarkable people. Who could be a part of a cadre of Individuals say, if I were preaching today, this is the topic I preach.

Karen:          Or how do we you even go in this far because you want to get those people together and the ideas to rise from. How do we help preachers improve their preaching in the States? In some ways David, you learned more about preaching from your lay people than you did in seminary. There’s sort of a formula kind of I was not in seminary, but…

David:          No, I’m not…

Karen:          …putting it down at all.

David:          I’m not downplaying. No…

Karen:          But you just as you got it into a church, very vibrant church, a growing church, you begin to realize that the formulas for preaching did not reach that age set. And it was a very young, I think our age set was about 28. We had all kinds of international students who attended. And so, you begin to work with your lay people.

David:          Yeah, I’d ask them, “Did you take anything away from what I preached last week?”

Karen:          Most of them couldn’t remember.

David:          So, I say, “Help me to make sure that you do take it away the next time.” I would work three four weeks ahead and then craft where I was going.

Karen:          Purpose sentence of…

David:          yeah, that’s why I got it into a sentence. I would do that and then I would run it by people. And most of the time they’d say, “It’s nice pastor, but it’s not where I am.”

Karen:          Not where we’re living.

David:          Yeah, you get paid to read your Bible and pray it.

David:          There are stock things that ministers preach about a lot. But I’m not sure that that’s where the parishioners are in their heads, you know. But just being able to dialogue about it, I think I’ve brought this up on the podcast before, but right now the world people live in through the week It’s not the same world that they live in when they go to church, right?

For example, is it just in my mind, what would be a topic that would be preached? What’s everybody talking about? They’re talking about the election. They’ve been talking about it for weeks. They’ll talk about it for another. It’s like, at this point in time, probably we’re getting down to pretty close to the wire now. But when you go to church, nobody talks about that except in rare situations where they have very secure pastors.

Karen:          Yeah, they want to stay away from controversial topics. And so, they maybe don’t even head into it because they want to avoid that.

David:          Yeah, my feeling would be the exact opposite. I would say, “Talk about it but not in a way that’s going to get you in trouble.” I think a topic of the incredible privilege in this country of voting for who our leaders should be. I would say as a goal of that preaching, I would like to make sure by such and such, a date, X percentage of our congregation has registered to vote. In fact, if we could come up with 100% registered to vote that would be a huge thing.

Karen:          Well, what if I’m not for any of the two people who are on top?

David:          You asked the question; you know how to answer that. What do you say? “Well, it’s not just two people who are running all. There are all kinds of down ballot people, and most people go in relatively uninformed. How can you be prepared especially if they’re key Christians you may not even know about and people who agree with you.

Karen:          When I look at the down ballot that we would fill out in our voting area, there are a lot of people on that down ballot. And a lot of them are Christians because they want to be involved in a way that will have significant influence in what’s happening in our local government. So, I think at church there’s a wonderful challenge to say exercise this American privilege.

There are people all over the world who have died trying to get rid of dictatorships or have a voice of the people that’s real expressing itself in the voting situation. So, what we need to do then on our level is begin to encourage church people to understand what an extraordinary privilege is.

David:          Yeah, I think it would make a wonderful story. The media would cover our church was 100% registered and we can show the 100% of the congregation did vote that day. And that’s a good story and you should put it in your paper. If you don’t like either presidential candidate.

Karen:          Yeah, go down ballot because that actually is going to influence you in some ways and you’re living more than you more than the national one.

David:          The truth of the matter is if you can’t vote for anybody on all those lists, you’re arrogant because you don’t like anybody at all. There are some good people in all those categories.

Karen:          I think one of the things that a church could do is to look at that local down ballot and there could be people in the church who would research and dig out the bios of the people who are on the down ballot and that would help inform the congregation.

David:          You would have to ask as a pastor, “Would this be a good thing? Would you like this? Would you like to nominate somebody to be on that committee?” But the incredible privilege…

Karen:          to be American citizen and exercise that. I think that’s huge. I think it’s huge.

David:          I think the congregation they would be so thrilled. Do you know that in our congregation every last person is registered to vote at every last one of them voted.

Karen:          Yeah, that’s right.

David:          You know we had to take certain people there by car so they could vote but we made sure that we exercise this unique privilege that is in this country that we love. But that’s a wonderful story. That’s just an example of the kind of thing that is possible if we just have certain people say “Let’s figure out how to do this.”

Karen:          So, that’s let’s say it’s a group who have expertise in communication of some form. So, they’re thinking naturally and maybe professionally how is the best way for me to frame what I have to say so that it will have a hearing and make not just people hearing it but applying it to the way they’re thinking and living. And that will make a difference in their life.

David:          Yeah, the bottom line is that these people are out there who are very good communicators. And it’s probably such that some minister in this country has said, “How do I get these people who maybe they’re going to die within a matter of weeks, but they still wanted to exercise their opportunity to vote?”

Those are wonderful stories. They’re out there. And there are people who are pulling those stories off. But the question is: do their ideas get shared?

So, I’m thinking, Karen, if 15 people, and you divided into groups of three that gives you five groups, I’m going to talk to 15 people who I know are really good communicators and say, “Would you be open to being a part of a podcast once a month and you’re going to say this is what I would preach if I were a pastor at a local church?”

Karen:          When you get a team of experts like that together and they began to brainstorm they come up with ideas that you’ve never even thought about. Your struggle in this last section of your life is to say, “How do I help improve the preaching of the church so that that’s not one of the major reasons that people are leaving because it’s not relevant.”

David:          That’s well said. In fact, as I was just brainstorming, I was starting to write down and then I wrote down a gentleman who I’ve only heard preach once but he heard that I was there and came up and wanted to meet me which was interesting.

Karen:          He’s very high in his profession.

David:          Yes, and I thought, “I wonder if that gentleman would do that?” He’s the head of a denominational seminary then I started a call and it kind of gave me cold feet. What if he says that’s the dumbest idea? He’s never going to do that, but he came back through secretary and said, “I’d be thrilled to meet with you.” He didn’t say this but it’s like I don’t even know what you’re going to talk about, but I want to meet with you.

Karen:          Yeah, that was lovely.

David:          Which was neat. In fact, one person I want to speak with is the chancellor of a large state university. I’m pretty sure she’ll say, “David I’d love to do that.” And she’s dynamized.

Karen:          I think her specialty when she was brought into that chancellor position was actually the sermon event.

David:          It was. Yes.

Karen:          And she asked them, “Do you want me to keep that as my specialty?” I said, “Oh yeah.” That’s part of the reason we’re having you take over this position which just has surprised you tremendously but that’s what you’re sensing is there are people out there in very key positions who have the platforms that you no longer have and who can help us make a difference in the preaching of the country.

David:          Because the broadcast was significant when people were asked to be on it, they wanted to. They wanted to share their ideas. I named some of those people. I think a Tom Skinner who is a phenomenal black evangelist. He came out of the tough world of New York.

Karen:          The gangs.

David:          The gangs yeah. But when he spoke, he got very quiet, and everybody listened.

Karen:          Yeah, he was so wonderful.

David:          I just wish somehow; we could have recorded the conversation with him as to his feelings about preaching. What restricted him for a while, and how he found his rhythm. And because every minister has this certain this is who I am and they’re in their sweet spot. I’m just thinking Ellen Redpath and I was a young man, and he befriended me.

Karen:          Oh, he did. He loved you.

David:          Yeah, but I wish you were back. I can’t manufacture what was a possibility at that time. And I was not far enough along in my ministry to say I should have tapped him. That’s where I am and I’m saying, “How do we get this format?” I want to talk to people about what I would like to do but at the same time I want to get their ideas. So, I don’t want to talk about a finished idea in my head.

Karen:          And I think what you’re also saying is this is still undefined partly because those people who have their own input. But it’s ill-defined because this is a new idea that the Lord is pressing on you until you can’t sleep. Wake up at night thinking about it.

David:          I do sense it’s the Lord saying, “David, I’ve given you a rare opportunity to meet different people. Now follow my direction. I’ll unfold everything for you because it means not only coming up with people, but it means raising money because I found out from podcasts it helps to advertise your podcast”.

I would like to advertise the big preacher magazines. The things that ministers are reading maybe a quarter page ad. I got to get to them because it’s not fair to occupy the time of the people and then not give them the exposure that that could.

So, I’m trying to figure all this out in my head. Anyway, I’m wrestling with this and Karen in some ways I’m actually following in your footsteps because I remember some time back when you said…

Karen:          Are you blaming me for this?

David:          Yeah, I am because you said sometimes back, “You know what? The Christian writers should get together on an informal basis not a convention but just get together as friends and talk to each other.” And you formed with some of the really major name Christian writers in the country.

Karen:          At that time.

David:          What was it you called it?

Karen:          It was the Christism Society.

David:          Which has been going for years and years and still does where the writers get together and just learn from one another. Yeah, aren’t you glad you did that?

Karen:          Yeah, it was wonderful.

David:          Now you need to help me do what I’m wanting to do.

Karen:          Okay. I’m on your team.

David:          How far percentage wise do you think I am down the road here?

Karen:          I think you’re beginning but you’re listening to God so that’s probably way down the road once you hear him starts pushing you and prodding you.

David:          Yeah, I would agree that’s where I am. And now, I’m asking people just to pray for me as well.

Karen:          Yeah.

Outro:          You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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