David:      Two days ago, we got home from a long 900-mile car trip. It was to the north and west of where we live here in the Chicagoland area.

Karen:     And we would like to share something that we saw with all of our listeners. Why? Because it made such a powerful impact on our lives.

Intro:       Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:      Actually Karen, probably the furthest away we were from Chicago is in the Minneapolis area. And we had finished our business a little bit sooner than we had anticipated. And as we got in the car and we’re going to the next place, in terms of our journey, Joel said, “Do we have time to go to the George Floyd memorial?” Joel is our adult son who was with us on the trip. We needed his expertise in terms of the meeting we had had. I thought, “You know, I’m tired.”

Karen:     Just want to get home.

David:      We got one more big meeting than we had. But he was kind of insistent and you were on his side. So, we actually went to the memorial and I’m so glad we did.

Karen:     It’s on 138th Street in Minneapolis and there are two large structures at either end, none of the block, but to the section that has been dedicated to the George Floyd memorial. Now, I’m just going to remind folk that this was the young black man who the entire nation watched being murdered by a policeman who had taken him.

David:      So, that’s not your opinion. That’s actually through the courts.

Karen:     That’s through the courts. That man has actually been convicted. So, we didn’t know what we were going to see, but we thought that since we were there with Joel’s urging, that would be good to stop. And we’re all very glad that we did. It was actually very powerful.

David:      It’s not some official thing that has been put together. It’s a community almost that has pulled together the pieces that help you understand and feel…

Karen:     …that this is where this young black man died.

David:      In fact, you park a certain amount of weight just because it’s crowded, not the big crowds that were there.

Karen:     Well, it’s still a functioning street. Even with all this, you have cars going down it and not as many probably as before, but businesses on either side of the street.

David:      On the street, as you mentioned it, from one curb to the other across that street is the name, probably in what do you think?

Karen:     Foot and a half letters.

David:      Someone’s name and then a little bit more on another name.

Karen:     They’ve all been painted right on the street.

David:      They’re not going from curb to curb. They’re going from the street all the way back.

Karen:     Down the way to car would drive. Yeah.

David:      These limitless almost names. You actually ask a gentleman.

Karen:     Well, there was a young man there and I said to him, I had a feeling that I knew what the names were, but I wanted to make sure because it wasn’t a sign. And I said to him, “What are all these names?” And he said, “These are all of the black people who have met their death at the hands of police enforcement.

David:      He was black himself.

Karen:     I was beginning to be very moved. You know, you’re emotional. I could hardly get my words out. And he turned to me and said, “Thank you for coming.” But you were talking to a midlife woman.

David:      This is as we walk more to the actual place where he was killed.

Karen:     It’s marked his body, outline of his body.

David:      Yes, there’s an outline of his body. So, you know you’re right there where it happened and you’re feeling it. And this is not some really nice memorial that has been built. There is a very large picture of his face that’s been painted. I don’t know who painted it. So, you know where you are and those stores that you heard about, they’re right there.

Karen:     It has a homegrown feel to it. It’s not a professional feel. People have responded by bringing flowers.

David:      And there are people and everyone’s milling.

Karen:     Mingling.

David:      And as you’re walking, you see other people who are there, and I turned and she’s very attractive. Middle-aged black woman. And she said the same thing the younger man had said as we were walking down the street. She said, “Thank you for coming. I’m George Floyd’s aunt.” And I recognized her because she had been on television.

Karen:     Her first name was Angela.

David:      I don’t remember her name.

Karen:     Yeah, I asked her and then I looked it up and it was Angela.

David:      And then I turned around because you were facing the other direction and I kind of pulled you. And then you talked with her.

Karen:     We chatted just a bit. It was brief. And I asked her, you know, more about herself and I was choking up as I’m starting to do now. And couldn’t talk much. And I said something to the effect of “I’m sorry”, but that seems like such an inadequate expression. And she says, “Well, it means a lot just to have people come.” And I said, “Do you host this?” I didn’t, you know, she sort of laughed. She said, it’s not quite the word I would use for this, but she does appear, and she answers questions.

David:      She comes out two, three hours a day.

Karen:     Yeah. And mingles with the crowd that’s there. But we stood kind of in silence because I was not able to speak and she is facing toward the street where all of these flowers and things were. And there were candles that had been put aside for lighting at night. And she put her arm around my waist, and I put my arm around her waist. And we just stood, two women who were strangers who had a moment of encounter where we became connected. So, I think that’s often what memorials do in our lives. But that was a powerful moment for us to be there at that time and that place.

David:      Because our memories are often quite short. Memorials help us remember what’s truly important, I believe. In fact, just that word, I looked up in the dictionary, memorial, anything to help people remember some person or event. And they come in different forms. For example, Memorial Day. That’s in May is when we remember our war debt. So that’s one way you can memorialize something. The Lincoln Memorial is a phenomenal place. And you get that same feeling. It’s to memorialize the life of one incredible man, Abraham Lincoln.

So, there are different ways. In fact, here as we were traveling, not on the interstates, but when you get off and there are stop lights and stop signs. On occasion you’ll see on the side of the road a sign that says historical marker. Which means that somebody said something’s important here. And you might want to stop and just recall.

Karen:     Take a moment.

David:      Take it in.

Karen:     You know, I think as we’re talking that, that’s really what cemeteries often provide. The markers of headstones of people we love or maybe those we don’t even know. Say that remember that there was a life lived and this is the name of that person, and this is the dates of that life. So, I think that that even can be a memorial event.

David:      We need these. We need these in our lives. I’m thinking there are several places that I could go as illustrations. This is from the book of Joshua. And you remember when they went into the land there was another river where they came to the edge of the Jordan. And how do you get across and the river parted? Not Moses this time, but Joshua. And that was very important to God. And so, after everyone had crossed over the scripture says that Joshua had them go back into the river bed, which was dry. Because it backed up way farther back.

Karen:     …from the banks of the river.

David:      Yes. And they got 12 stones. I’m not talking stones you pick up with a hand. They were large boulders. And one for each tribe they built a memorial. And the reason was that they needed to remember that when they came to that place in their lives, God helped them out with a miracle. In fact, the scripture at the end of that time it says that memorial is still there today. I don’t think it’s still there now.

Karen:     But the scriptures were written.

David:      Way back in the days of Joshua and following. Yeah, it was still there. This is important. So that’s a visual reminder. You have all kinds of different reminders that come as to when these special times take place. And even the horrendous times, Karen. I think of another trip we made just a couple of years ago. It wasn’t to Minnesota this time. It was down to Alabama.

Karen:     Montgomery, Alabama. Well, I had been sick that whole summer.

David:      More sick than you’re willing to admit sometimes.

Karen:     I’m beginning to realize how sick I was that summer. That was three summers ago. And so, I couldn’t do anything. I was pretty well waylaid here at home. But I did do a study of racism in America. On the top of my roll-top desk, two piles of books that dealt with the whole concept of racism in America that have been published in the last, I would say, five years. So, we’re getting an articulation and a historical viewpoint and sociological analysis of how racism not only impacted black people, but impacted those of us who lived in a country where that was going on.

Sometimes in ways we had no idea that it was happening. But in that study, I realized that Brian Stevens had started what’s called the Equal Justice Initiative. He’s a black man. He’s a lawyer.

And that was started because there were so many black people who were convicted without appropriate legal representation. Many of them hadn’t really committed the crimes. They were innocent, actually. Or they got horrendous sentences for what they had done. So, he began to work with the Equal Justice Initiative to raise it up to represent these people. Not just black people, but people who were impoverished in him the money to get the kind of legal representation they needed. Out of that then grew this whole concept of the fact that there had been thousands of lynchings in the states not just in the south.

David:      Mostly in the south but not just there.

Karen:     But more than we knew of in the north.

David:      Yes, there were 4,400 lynchings.

Karen:     Right.

David:      Which I mean that’s a huge number that they can account for and it’s still growing.

Karen:     Yeah. As far as the recognition is. So, they needed a way to memorialize the fact that this was part of our American history that we couldn’t overlook. When that began to go on through the south and it was outside of the legal system. It was truly vigilante work for most of them. The blacks fled, there were thousands and thousands that fled to the north.

EJI had begun to memorialize her to study and figure out where these places were, and they came up with a huge number of 4,400. Those were just in the south and then additional ones in the north. So, they put up what I call the lynching memorial. So, when I was sick and I had done all of this reading I had really wanted to go down when the lynching memorial opened. That’s again to Alabama but I wasn’t well enough to go. And at the end of the summer was feeling better so in September of that year we did make a pilgrimage really just to see that lynching memorial in Montgomery. You want to talk about it because I’m getting choked up again.

David:      It has an impact more than you might imagine. I think they say that this is a sacred place.

Karen:     There’s a sign.

David:      You’re not to smoke, you’re not to talk loudly.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:      And the more you move into it and see just in simple sentences the stories and all these representative hangings because of these big rectangular columns that come from them.

Karen:     Let me try and describe it. It’s an open-air pavilion. There’s a walk that goes down the sides around this open-air pavilion. It’s on a six-acre site. So, the whole site is dedicated to memorializing in one way or the other and they’re wanting to do other things such as sculptures etc. And then they have what they call curtains. They’re sort of like cement blocks I believe that hang in this pavilion that represent each state where there were lynchings and on those large blocks while they represent the bodies there are engraved the lynchings that took place in what county in that state.

Along the sides then they will have placards that tell of an instance. And one I remember was of a young woman who was maybe eight months pregnant. I can’t remember exactly who was lynched because she protested the lynching of her husband. This is how heinous this all was. So, I feel like almost every white American needs to visit that site so they can understand how prevailing and insidious this was. But certainly, every Christian American should go and then you know you just want to lay flat and just weep faced to the ground in mourning. It was extraordinary.

David:      You end up speechless.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:      I don’t think that’s wrong to say you do because…

Karen:     … that’s there are no words.

David:      Yeah, and it’s not just you the other people who are there with you they all feel it.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:      There is something…

Karen:     …beautifully done but powerfully awesome done. So, what are we saying?

David:      We’re saying. Well, we’re talking about memorializing things. And I think that it’s important just to get the concept in our heads. And here it was for us recalling again the trip to Montgomery and being at what is popularly called the Lynching Museum. And I just felt like this was a good thing, a good thing for us, and it’s so quickly that we forget what’s really happening and that’s true in terms of all of our lives. So, anyway with that as a beginning I’m thinking that that whole thing, I think I said it before that people’s memories are so short. It’s like my memory is very short. If I say the good side is, this is an amazing country. You know in this country we’re going to have a national day that was set aside for people to be thankful.

Karen:     Right.

David:      I think that’s a phenomenal thing in this country we’re going to have a day set aside to commemorate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior. I think that’s a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Karen:     And a day set aside to celebrate his resurrection from the tip.

David:      This is America. Beautiful, good side but it’s even possible in all those for people to somehow, including me, to somehow miss what this is really all about.

Karen:     Yeah, the meaning.

David:      You have to kind of be jarred back into coming up with what’s this all about.

Karen:     So, let’s take the day that’s crouching upon us or approaching us is a better word.

David:      Well, say even season yeah.

Karen:     Yeah thanksgiving. And it’s so easy David to get caught up with meal preparation and planning and inviting. And with COVID-19 now, so many of us have been vaccinated and feel safe and we’re being told by the experts that we can gather as families. We may still want to wear masks but if everyone’s had vaccines it’s a safer place for us. So, I think there’ll be more Thanksgiving celebrations. But the point of Thanksgiving Day is to give thanks and sometimes we get the food bought and prepared and the table set, and the people invited, and we don’t…

David:      And rush through that because the football game is coming up.

Karen:     …because we don’t spend time in thanksgiving. And so, what we want to do first if we’re just you and me this year or if it’s an extended family or if it’s family and friends we want to say “How do we emphasize what this day is all about. What this memorial is all about?”

David:      I put it into a sentence.

Karen:     Oh, you did oh good for you.

David:      Listen to this. American Christians would do well to think carefully and prayerfully about how they will celebrate special days such as Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. Okay? Let me say it again.

Karen:     Yep.

David:      Did I get it or not?

Karen:     I think you nailed it.

David: American Christians would do well to think carefully and prayerfully about how they will celebrate special days such as Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. Goodness we’re in this land where we can do these.

Karen:     Well, I just had an idea as we’re talking. We do, generally, when we gather say, let’s share what some of the things we’re thankful about. But I think it would be good this year if you and I wrote personal letters to our family and extended family and say, in anticipation of the fact that we’re going to celebrate Thanksgiving, “This is something I want to tell you that I’m grateful about as far as who you are, what you do in life, how you have developed this kind of character means so much to me.” So, there’s a lasting record…

David:      …especially as we get older…

Karen:     …of the things that we feel about our family, and I don’t say enough probably to them.

David:      I was thinking more even in terms of, you know, I got to do it right a letter to God and I don’t know how you send it to him. In this sense you just have to think prayerfully and carefully about how do we make sure that this doesn’t become huhum to us.

Karen:     Right.

David:      It’s the same as that neighborhood saying, there’s something unique about this place because of what happened. Even now as you go there there’s not big money behind it, but you know that that impacted the whole of this land and it becomes hallowed in some ways. That’s the same thing as far as what’s happened in this country, we have this Christian heritage, there’s no question that’s there, but it’s not enough to say it’s there and then argue about it. We have to say, “Okay now, Jesus I need to figure out a way that adequately to my satisfaction says thank you for the incredible way you have acted in my life for all these many years.” That’s not easy to do and you never do it perfectly, but you do it to such a degree that you say I really worked at it. It wasn’t something that just came off the top of my head and oh that’s done now.

Karen:     Do we have time for one more thing? I have signs printed out and put them out on the street. Like one was: love your neighbor. Yep that means all of them. So, what about a sign that says, I’m playing, this is a house that gives thanksgiving or you can brainstorm this.

David:      It gives thanks to the Lord.

Karen:     It gives thanks to the Lord for all.

David:      It’s beautiful.

Karen:     So, we can and I generally we have a circle drive, so I generally have two made. But I think I have just enough time to have the sign makers make something.

David:      I think it’s a great idea.

Karen:     Okay you help me brainstorm that. I will get the wording down. But what we’re saying is this is the sort of stuff that we need to be doing with one another, with our friends, with their family, saying, “How do we make this memorial celebration of thanksgiving the best that we possibly can?”

David:      Now you’re individualizing what your mind is going through. I’m going back to the basic thought, okay? And I’ll say it one more time. American Christians would do well to think carefully and prayerfully about how they will celebrate special days such as Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter.

Outro:      You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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