David:      When doing the Chapel of the Air broadcast, one of my favorite guests was Anglican Bishop, Festo Kivengere. Karen, do you remember what country he was from?

Karen:     He was from Uganda. He was a wonderful man.

David:      Yes, just a prince in every way.

Karen:     Yeah, he was.

Intro:       Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:      I learned a lot from Festo Kivengere.

Karen:     What about revival too? You learned a lot.

David:      Yes, most of all I would say that. We talked at length about it. Festo died in 1988, so he’s been gone for a while. I ask you to read a little bit from a book because when he talked about revival, it sounded very different from where the books that I talked about, revival from, okay?

Karen:     I have Festo Kivengere. It’s one of his books. It’s called Revolutionary Love. He came up under the regime of Idi Amin. In fact, they had to flee, and his family had to flee. And yet he was a man who believed in forgiveness, and he preached that forgiveness.

And part of that came out of the East African revivals that occurred during that day as well. But let me just remind listeners who he was. I’ll read a little bit off the back cover of his book, Revolutionary Love. He was the Bishop of the Diocese of Kigezi in Uganda. He had founded African Enterprises East Africa teams in Kenya. He was forced to flee for his life in 1977.

David:      Well, perhaps because the Archbishop had been killed.

Karen:     Who was over this group of bishops.

David:      And Festo was going to stay, but the people said, one bishop is enough.

Karen:     Yeah, one bishop dead is enough.

David:       You need to get out of here. And they drove him to the place where he could walk to his freedom with his wife in Kenya.

Karen:     Yes. He stayed abroad into the liberation of his country in 1979. So go ahead. What did we want to talk about?

David:      I want you to read from the book.

Karen:     Okay.

David:       In my personal sense, when I would talk to Festo, he would talk about revival illustrations from his country. Then it took a whole new meaning to me. So, this is one of those illustrations.

Karen:     So, he enculturated.

David:      That’s it.

Karen:     That’s what we talk about.  So, here’s a wonderful little story.

“We were a cattle people. To my tribe, cows were what made life worth living. By the time I was three, I knew the name of every one of my father’s 120 cows, bulls and calves. Some men I knew thought more of their cattle than of their children.”

So, there were many things that happened in this context that were incredible. And so, he tells this story. For instance, “One day the chief was holding court and his elders were listening to his wisdom. When a man arrived, who was well known to be a pagan and wealthy in cattle, his servants had eight fine cows. They were driving along, and all the elders turned to look at them appreciatively. The cattle baron greeted everyone and then said, ‘Your honor, I have come for a purpose.’ And the chief answered, ‘Fine. What are these cows for?’ ‘Sir,’ said the man, ‘They are yours. I have brought them back to you.’ ‘What do you mean they are mine? ‘Well, sir, when I was looking after your cattle, I stole four of them when I told you we had been raided. These four are now eight. I have brought them to you.’ ‘Who discovered this theft?’ ‘Jesus did, sir.’”

David:       That’s wonderful.

Karen:     “‘He has given me peace and told me to bring them.’ There was dead silence and no laughter. It was quite a shock. My uncle could see that this man was rejoicing, and all knew that what he had done was impossible for a man from our tribe. ‘You can put me in prison, sir, or have me beaten. I deserve it. But I am at peace and a free man for the first time.’ ‘Huh,’ said my uncle. ‘If God has done that for you, who am I to put you in prison? Leave the cattle and go home.’

A day or two later, when I saw my uncle, I said, ‘I hear you got eight good cows free.’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘It’s true.’ ‘Well, you must be happy.’ ‘Forget it. Since that man came, I can’t sleep. If I wanted the peace he has, I would have to return a hundred cows.’”

David:      You know, that’s a revival story.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:       But it’s in a totally different context than what normally is. I would read and he was absolutely marvelous.

Karen:      Yes.

David:       I miss him very, very much.

Karen:      Yeah.

David:       Just a beautiful, beautiful man in every way possible.

Karen:     And fortunately, we have a recording of some of the broadcasts you did with him. You’re going to play that whole recording…

David:      …the following week. We will make sure that people get a chance to hear his voice because his voice is charming.

Karen:     Beautiful African accent, English accent.

David:      Yes. Anyway, we were at a birthday party, not for a little child, but for an adult.

Karen:     For one of our staff.

David:      Yeah. And he invited us, it was his birthday, to dinner and some of his close friends. So, how this connects to Bishop Kivengere? I’m going to pull it together here in just a minute. We were at a long table. It wasn’t a normal square table or round table.

Karen:     There were a lot of voices going on and people being served, etc., etc.

David:      And you were at the far end of the table near the wall and across from a young man we had not met before. And I was sitting next to you. And I was kind of trying to figure out which conversation to become a part of. But talk about the young man just for a second.

Karen:     Well, I never met him before. So, you asked those introductory questions. “Well, tell me a little bit about yourself. What do you do?”

Well, he was working in Rwanda, which is nearby, Uganda. And all of the hospital records had been hand recorded. So, can you imagine that? You have hundreds of patients coming through and everyone’s in handwriting. But who can read one another’s handwriting half the time? So, he’s transferring all of that to technology so that all of those records were put into technology. So, he’s a tech kind of guy. But the more I talked to him, he just was a fascinating young man. He was a believer and a very intelligent person. I mean, we could have gone on for hours. I was learning a lot just by talking to him.

David:      And I was trying to get into the conversation, and I thought, well, this is a good way. I say, did you ever hear of Bishop Festo Kivengere?

Karen:     Right.

David:      Those countries are very close together.

Karen:     So, this young man’s in his 30s. Okay.

David:      The bishop died in 1988.

Karen:      In 1988. Yeah.

David:       So, it’s possible that…

Karen:      He had heard of him.

David:      Yeah. It seemed like it because Festo was known as the Billy Graham of Africa. And on top of that, he was known really all around the world. But the response to this young man was, say that name again.

Karen:     No, never heard of him.

David:      He had never heard of Festo.

Karen:     This extraordinary leader.

David:      Yes. So, and it just made us aware that life is very quick, and you know…

Karen:      What fame you have.

David:      Yeah. It’s gone very, very soon.

Karen:     Goes very, very soon, right? That’s right.

David:      And I think we’re at the point in our lives where we are older. I’m 85, and you’re…

Karen:     78 last time I counted.

David:      That’s where you are. The truth is, soon after we’re gone, in fact, even before we’re gone.

Karen:     Even now.

David:      Most people have no idea who we are or what we’ve done or any of that sort.

Karen:     So, let me just remind our listeners that we had a national broadcast that had about two million listeners a day according to the experts and it was aired daily six times a week. Not on Sunday.

David:      It came in every day.

Karen:     All over the country in 500 outlets. So, our grandchildren understand what it’s like to be a Mains because they have the Mains last name and I was talking with one of them and he said, “No matter where I went in Christian circles, if I gave my name Nathaniel Mains, someone was able to say to me, oh, there’s some people, David and Karen Mains, are you related to them? He said it just happened all the time. It does not happen anymore.” Okay. Those days are gone.

David:      It’s prompted us to say, “Okay, we need to start thinking because we’ll be gone. What is important to us?”

Karen:     At the stage in our life. Yeah.

David:      What’s the name of our podcast?

Karen:     Before we go.

David:      So, we’re kind of processing all of that. In fact, I’m going to put it into a sentence because it not only relates to us, to all people. Life is very brief. Ask yourself frequently what you’re looking for in life because it goes by quite quickly. The brevity is amazing.

Karen:     Well, and I think…

David:      Just before I forget it, when we say the Billy Graham of Africa, I was talking to one of our 18-year-old grandchildren and I said to him, “I’d like to take time and we’ll go together to the Billy Graham Museum at Wheaton College which will be a great experience for you.” “Who’s Billy Graham?” He said, which absolutely dumbfounded me, you know, because Billy Graham is a massive worldwide figure. But the truth of the matter is our youngest grandkids, we have a 13-year-old and 11 year old and nine year old, they don’t know who Billy Graham is. The world goes on very, very quickly. So, there aren’t a lot of people who everybody knows their name.

Karen:     There’s a little saying that keeps coming to my mind, “Only one life will soon be past, only what’s done for Christ will last.” So, I think what we’re doing in this lad or part of our lives, knowing that we have at the most a decade maybe to be high functioning if the Lord continues his grace to us and we stay well and of good mind, is to ask ourselves what are the things we want to do for Christ because those will last. They’re counted in eternity; we’re told in the scripture. How can we use this aging period in our life to advance the kingdom of God to serve Christ in a way that is meaningful to other people but also meaningful to him?

David:      And that could be in numerous ways. Anyway, I’ve wrestled with the question, and I told you to wrestle with it so let’s see what we come up with.

Karen:     Okay.

David:      I would say in my life one of the things I very much would like to be a part of yet is a church that is experiencing the presence of the Lord in a remarkable way. I could use the word revival which means life coming back again. I don’t believe that’s going to happen apart from a prayer base.

Karen:     In that church.

David:      Yeah, and I’ve said to the Lord, “I’m looking now, we’re kind of in transition in our lives, I’m looking now for a church that only lacks this thing in a major way and that is a praying base.” Churches today don’t have the Wednesday night prayer meetings for the most part. They don’t have people who are coming together to pray for the needs of the church. And I feel the Lord has prepared me to the place where I would say, “I’m happy to be a part of that church that is praying during the services and is gathering a group of people who are praying.” I remember the stories of Charles Spurgeon. There’s another name people won’t be able to remember, right?

Karen:     Famous London pulpitier.

David:      He would take people down to what he called his power plant and there’d be 300 people praying during the time of his services. I think that’s very important, and we have lost that in our churches for the most part. There may be exceptions, but for the most part. And I would like to be a part of building that prayer base in a church because once the moving of the Holy Spirit happens it’s like, in fact Spurgeon used to call revival glorious confusion, so many things happening. He can’t keep up with it.

Karen:     It’s wonderful really isn’t it because we think of it clean cut but…

David:      …it’s wonderful, glorious confusion.

Karen:     Glorious confusion.

David:      So, I’m looking for a place, not just any church who say, “yeah, we could use you.” You know I’m not at that point. I’m saying where is God put his hand on a young man.

Karen:      A young man or woman.

David:      That’s a very good addition. Yes, where I can be a part of behind the scenes just building the prayer base that sees God work in a remarkable way. I have a spiritual mentor and he said what is it you’re looking for in life and it’s kind of the same question coming from a different angle. That’s what I’m looking for, where I can be a part of that.

Karen:     So, I wrestled with this as well and one of my passions has always been to write out. I’m a writer, and I’ve written mostly for the religious marketplace or for religious publishing or for religious media, but my passion has always been where are those Christian voices, who in the best way possible, who are gifted not in a propagandist kind of way but in a natural way, are writing the meaning of faith out into a secular culture. And so that’s what I prayed for years for this. I watched for the names of people who are writing out.

In fact, we know a gentleman from Wheaton Colleges, he is an African American. Dr. Esau McCaulley who has written a wonderful book of theology that you and I just wish we’d had when we were doing interracial work. But I noticed that he had had an article printed by the New York Times, opinion page, and it was on forgiveness. So, there was the topic and as it related to things that are happening in our culture now. And I just said, “Oh thank you God this is wonderful.” And I can name many other names because I’ve really watched for this as I’ve been writing for religious periodical.

So, I’ve prayed for that for other people to have a voice. And maybe that’s all that burden is. Just so that people like Dr. McCauley and different ones would find a place in secular culture to make those statements of faith. And it was beautifully done. But I would like to be part of that as well. So, one of the things you have to do is you have to submit articles for publications like six months ahead of when they’re publishing things so I’m thinking.

David:      That’s for what a magazine because you can’t do that with a newspaper.

Karen:     No, newspapers are more current but periodicals I think this whole last year I subscribed to all kinds of secular periodicals, read through them.

David:      I have probably been embarrassed by some of the covers that have come to my house.

Karen:     I’ve seen what faith statements might be being made and if there is something I can begin to send out to, so I am sending my first article out for their Easter season. You know there may not be celebrating Easter, but it would be much better to submit something for that six-month window that does have some statement of faith that comes through the writing, the topic of the writing itself. So, that’s where I am right now and I’m just praying that the Lord will honor that at this end of my life and I’m reminding them that I have served him all of my life.

David:      You’d like to see that part of your life.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:      Finding fulfillment. Here’s that sentence again. Ask yourself frequently what you’re looking for in life because it goes by quite quickly. So, maybe the Lord says to you, you should have been asking about this 20 years ago and you could say I was.

Karen:      I was. I was. I was.

David:       I was in 20 years ago asking for a work and I rally the prayer base.

Karen:     Yeah, but you have always had revival at the corner of your being and so you can’t have revival as far as your historical research without that prayer base. We’ve already said this in this podcast but I’m emphasizing it again.

David:      We are sharing by way of testimony mostly to clarify for an individual listening to us and saying to that man or woman, “We’re talking to you. Ask yourself frequently, what are you looking for in life? Because it goes by quite quickly. Giving that wrestling specificity will be very beneficial to you because it kind of gives you the direction of, ‘What am I running? Oh, I’m running for that goal over there.’” Okay. Would you be interested in hearing from people that they say, “Yeah, I’m with you and let me tell you what I’m wanting from God before I’m passed by from the scene.

Karen:     Dean will give the contact information to those who would be interested in doing that.

David:      But you really like it when somebody responds and says, “I’m with you. I’m there. I’m listening.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:      I’m ahead of you.

Karen:      We’d like to know about it. I wanted this in my life and God provided it. Praise the Lord. That would be something. Well, we’ve taken up our time and we will spend time more listening to Festive Kivengere next time we meet together on Before We Go.

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