David:         Karen, do you know what a stump speech is?

Karen:         Well, that’s because we’re in a political season right now. I think it’s sort of the standard speech that the person who’s running for office just gives wherever he or she goes.

David:         Tweak it a little bit.

Karen:         Make it current to the high folks from Oskaloosa.

David:         Did Jesus have a stump speech?

Intro:          Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

Karen:         I’d like to say hi to our listeners. I think sometimes we get in the studio here because we’re alone in Dean’s in Erie, Pennsylvania recording this. We forget that we have listeners who mean so much to us and I was thinking the other day our whole life as adults has been dependent upon listeners. Listeners who hear what we have to say and respond and then add things to what we say and say, “What have you thought about this?” So, my greeting to them.

David:         Did Jesus have a stump speech? A go to message that he just gave and get it again?

Karen:         I think he did, David. I mean, when you go through and read the Gospels, it was the Kingdom of God. As far as I’m concerned, I think you’re in agreement with me on that.

David:         In the Gospels, Karen, the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven come up 120 times.

Karen:         I think he had a stump speech. Of course those are repetitive. The Gospels are repeating incidents, but still the emphasis is huge.

David:         Stump speech sounds a little bit crass. I would say he had a sermon he went to again and again.

Karen:         A burning message. How about that? Something he wanted to really get across.

David:         The Gospel of the Kingdom, the good news of the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven, 120 times in the Gospels. And Matthew, that comes up 53 times. In Mark 20 times, in Luke 43 times, in John 4 times. I also want to say that in the Book of Acts, the Kingdom comes up 8 times, in the Epistles 20 times in the Book of Revelation 8 times.

So yes, he had a stump speech or I would probably use the term he had this go to message over and over. And it’s very important that we understand it. I think one of the things that might be a little bit confusing, Karen, is that he uses interchangeably the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Sometimes people try to say, “Okay, what is the distinction between the two?” I don’t really think there’s a distinction, but let me just read one short paragraph from the Book of Matthew where these two terms are used interchangeably, Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God.

“Then Jesus said to his disciples, I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

Karen:         Wow.

David:         See what he’s done there?

Karen:         Yeah.

David:         He’s used the terms interchangeably. I think it’s important just to recognize that rather than trying to make a distinction. You could make a distinction, but I don’t think that’s what he’s trying to do.

Karen:         Let me just give a little personal history. Our growing understanding of this, one of the primary messages of Jesus. As far as I can remember, I had never heard anything about the theology of the Kingdom of God, and I was raised in very fine, conservative, evangelical churches.

David:         I can say the same thing about myself.

Karen:         I don’t recall one thing about it. And yet when you look at it being a primary, if not the primary message in all of its ramifications, not just a short little phrase here or there, but the teaching of Jesus Christ, why did we overlook that? We’ve said before we had a church we planted in Chicago called Circle Church. So, you began to emphasize this because you began at that time to get the concept that this was a major preaching subject of Jesus Christ. And so, it was just totally new.

And then you think, how did we not see that? And so that became the point where this emphasis was developed. And I think, David, if I recall right, it was such an important message. We had a growing congregation and it grew to about 500. A lot of international students who would be there for a year, two years. So, you preached it, I think, three times in the 10 years that we were.

David:         Three series.

Karen:         Three series.

David:         Extended series.

Karen:         Yeah. So, at that point it became a living theology for you and for me.

David:         You can look for those titles, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, but there’s a lot more that you can look for as you do study the scriptures. Long time back I wrote a book called Thy Kingship Come. I suggested in there that people do a Bible study and I want to just read a little bit of what I wrote, okay?

2 Peter 1:11. Peter writes, “There will be provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Now that’s a little bit different, but he’s using that word kingdom again.

Checking my master sheet, I saw I had recorded that reference already. But at verse 16, I hit Peter. I’m encouraging people in this writing to look at Kingdom of God. Then it’s all through the Bible.

Here was a strong word I hadn’t found before on how descriptive, “For we do not follow cleverly devise myths,” writes Peter, “when we may know unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His Majesty.”

That’s a phrase that relates to what we’re talking about. The phrase almost jumped off the page when I read it, His Majesty.

I remember I continued to write one time asking myself, “How would I address a real king?”

I decided I would probably call him Your Majesty. But would I be comfortable saying that to God? After reading the passage from Peter, I had to bow my head, greatly moved and say “Thanks.” He had taught me the grandeur and appropriateness of these words, His Majesty.

Can I still say father when I pray? Of course. But I learned that other terms were appropriate also.

The fact is, the truth of Christ’s kingship is sprinkled all through Acts, the Epistles, and Revelation. Consider such well-known phrases as these, “…every knee shall bow.” “Christ is seated at the right hand of God,” “…all things under His feet.” “God hath highly exalted Him above all rule and authority and power and dominion,” “…made worthy of the kingdom of God,” “…heirs of the kingdom which He promised,” “…a kingdom that cannot be shaken by His appearing,” and “His kingdom” “…flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” “Fellow members of the kingdom of God,” “…transfer us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.”

Karen:         So just all through scripture.

David:         Yeah, I’m just reading this more and more. Some Christians may be like rebellious Anna in the play The King and I. When she sees the Siamese ruler lording it over people, she sings, “Yes, Your Majesty.” “Know Your Majesty,” “Show Me How Low to Bow Your Majesty.”

But her sarcasm doesn’t alter the fact that the king is still the king. And in the same way, we do well to be reminded of the majesty and the kingship of Christ.

Karen:         As we’ve worked with this concept through our marriage, I think it’s, in particularly in this political environment we’re in right now, where everything is ramping up to who we’re going to vote for president. I think it’s because we live in a democratic society where we haven’t had a history of having a king or a ruler.

And it’s really hard for us, as American Christians, to get our mind around this concept. To even imagine what it would be like. Remember, I think it was Winston Churchill, who quoted as saying, “What this world really needs is a benevolent dictator.”

And I think in another sense, that’s what the kingship idea sort of builds on, that there is a benevolent ruler who has the interest of his people at heart and who wants what is best for them. And has established a very simple formula, “Love the Lord, your God with all your hearts, soul, mind, and strength. And your neighbor as yourself,” I mean, that sort of summarizes how people who are part of the kingdom should live. And we have trouble with that. I mean, that’s hard for us to do.

David:         It’s mind-boggling.

Karen:         Because it’s so simple to hear and so difficult to live.

David:         But you have this marvelous king who lives this out, says, “I will enter you and help you” all that I will bring about a second birth.

Karen:         Yes, second birth. His Holy Spirit does come and dwell us and guide us. And it’s an unearthly concept beyond our imagining. So, sometimes it’s hard to grasp.

David:         We’ll define it a little bit. Okay. I went to the dictionary.

Karen:         Good.

David:         I’ll tell you how helpful it was. The dictionary says a kingdom is a government headed by a king or queen.

Karen:         We knew that anyway.

David:         So anyway, in this setting of Scripture and God revealing Himself to us, He never liked the idea of giving kingship to people because they always mess it up. But He showed us what the kingship should be like when He sent His Son, our King. The kingdom of God is any setting where Christ is recognized as King and His will is obeyed. I think that’s key to what we’re talking about and what the Scriptures talk about. The kingdom of God is any setting where Christ is recognized as King and His will is obeyed. So let me ask you a couple of questions. These are pretty simple, okay? “Could a small group Bible study be a representation of the kingdom of God?”

Karen:         Yeah, I think a lot of small group Bible studies gathered it and studied the Scripture, but I don’t think the kingship idea has entered into our daily consciousnesses as Christians in America.

David:         It may be hard for people to pick that up with that illustration.

Karen:         So, this is the Tales of the Kingdom. There are three books, Tales of the Kingdom, Tales of the Resistance, and then Tales of the Restoration. The letters we get from them are often from adults. I remember one letter where a dad was reading to his little daughter from the Tales of the Kingdom and the little girl came into the kitchen and said, “Mommy, why is daddy crying?” Well, because something in the tales written for children of all ages hit him in a way that was not just a human message. It was something coming from God, from above, from the Holy Spirit.

David:         I think in that there are two locations. One is the Enchanted City, which is the rule of the Enchanter, the evil enchanter. There are members of the kingdom of God in that setting, but that’s kind of the way the world is. Another one, Great Park is where the king rules, and some of the people, probably the great majority of the people in Great Park, they’re devoted followers of Jesus, immature sometimes, and there are some people who are traitors to the king, but that’s kind of the world in which we live.

So, and the books are not perfect in terms of their theology, but it gives you the overview of what’s going on. And I think it brings in people’s minds and in their families, as they read them to the children, that there is a king and he is a wonderful king. And you can live in his great park at the same time you have an obligation to see that those who don’t live in that setting hear about the wonder of this place where they can be a part of the absolute best kingdom in the whole world.

Karen:         Yeah, and I think that the effort, I mean it took me three years maybe of my writing my write the tales books for the purpose of making the kingdom of God real in a literary way. But the living it out in our personal lives has been part of that effort as well.

Do we bow our knee to the king? Are we continually attempting to inculcate and live by kingdom values, not by the world’s value? It’s so difficult in America particularly because again we know many people who are Christians from other parts of the world and the difference between the kingdom of God and the society in which they live, a brutal dictatorship or whatever it is, is much more apparent in those societies than it is here in the States. But I think this is a valuable exercise for our listeners. And are you listening to us that if you haven’t really grappled with the reality of the meaning of Christ’s major message really, it was his major emphasis, then you need to do that theological work and let the Holy Spirit just apply it to how you’re living.

David:         Christ’s followers, followers of Jesus are aware that his go-to message was about the kingdom of God. “Except a man be born again, he can’t enter the kingdom of God.” That’s Jesus talking to Nicodemus in John chapter three.

So, there is a sense in which you need to say, “I understand that I need to bow my knee before Jesus in order to enter the kingdom of God.” But then that whole world of living under the best of all kings, that’s a wonderful thing. It’s thrilling to me even to think about it and talk about it now and say, “Oh your majesty.”

I am so fortunate that I was raised in a home where my parents taught me. And I was in a church where I was taught even though it wasn’t perfect. But there needed to be a place where I myself knew when I entered the kingdom and that would live. It would be the primary teaching in the whole of my life that I lived under a righteous king. Anyway, where do we go with all of this?

Karen:         Well, I think after hearing this podcast, what we’re wanting to do is to ask people if they haven’t done this, to seriously consider first of all what the teachings about the kingdom of God are. Do a study, do your own study.

It’s one thing to hear you and me talk about it or another group of people talk about it or a preacher preach about it. But when you get into the scripture yourself and study it and write out the study in a place where you can keep it, you begin to see the impact of this. And that it was the major message of Christ.

And so, then what are the realities of that? How do I live in this human democracy that we have here, which is I think a gift of God to have even the idea of a democracy. And we take that for granted. But then how do we live out the kingdom message in the middle of this kind of democracy that we’re hearing so much now about because we’re in a very political season as we’re podcasting?

David:         I’ll go back to that sentence again. Christ followers, the close followers of him. Christ followers are aware that his go-to message was about the kingdom of God. More and more like that go-to message as opposed to his stump speech.

Karen:         Yeah.

David:         That’s a little bit crass. I don’t like that as well. Followers of Jesus are aware that his go-to message, the message he spoke again and again. I don’t think that’s a put down at all. It doesn’t sound like he didn’t have more to say. He just had to go back to that same thing over and over. I don’t mean it that way at all. I just mean that he saw his kingship as being paramount in terms of all of their relationships and of their love for him. I think it’s not being sacrilegious, not even, don’t think it making things sound trite to say. It was his go-to message. Because of that it bore repeating again and again and again. I think that it bears repeating in my life.

This morning when I wake up. I say, “Lord Jesus, I bow my knee before you, Your Majesty. And I have learned so much from you. You’ve told me that you care about me. Here are my concerns for this day. And you just kind of put it in the right sense of a humble servant of Jesus. I want to be who you want me to be today. I want to see people through your eyes, your majesty,” and so on.

But it becomes a way of life. It needs to have an entry point. Yes, I understand that. Some people, it’s very dramatic. Some people have learned it from the time they were little because their parents read the scriptures to them, talked the Bible stories with them and so on. But this day, I am a member of the Kingdom of the God. I serve the greatest king in the whole of the universe.

Karen:         I’m here to help advance this kingdom in whatever venue I have, whatever venue I function in, to advance this kingdom either by demonstration or by actual words or that’s the purpose of my living.

David:         And on top of that, I’m loved by the King. They’re fabulous, fabulous truths. So worthy theme to be preached over and over again. It never gets old.

Karen:         Let me say something to our listeners too. We would love to hear about your experience in learning about the kingdom of God. So, Dean won’t tell you how to communicate with us, but that encourages our faith as we hope this podcast has encouraged yours.

David:         Dean, serve the same king we do, don’t you?

Dean:         Yes, I do, David. And what a joy it is to have that king as King of our life. There’s a hymn writer who’s written, “King of my life I crown thee now. Thine shall the glory be.”

David:         Oh, gee, that’s a wonderful quote. That’s true. Yeah, it gives me the goosebumps to hear you say that, even Dean bless you.

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