David:        At this stage in our lives, Karen, you and I are in what we might say is a reflective mood.

Karen:        Yes, instead of always talking about new topics, David and I are choosing to visit some of the old topics talked about and written about some 40, oh well, maybe even 50 years ago.

David:        Almost 50 years ago. Right. Thank you for joining us as we reflect once again on the pertinent subject of Christian hospitality.

Intro:         Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:        Some might say that hospitality seems like a rather obscure topic. I don’t remember hearing all that much about it from our church pulpit. Where did you come up with it?

Karen:        Well, it was modeled in my family. My dad was Dick Burton or Wilford Burton. He was known by Dick. And he just was a hospitable person. So, I saw it modeled in not only my father, but his Burton clan. There was just this great emphasis on inviting people in and in including people. There was not much said about it. It was just done.

David:        I think of your family, Karen, I think about those Sunday afternoon meals.

Karen:        Sunday meals. Yeah. Mother worked full time, but we always had Sunday meal where we gathered at the table.

David:        Big table. Big dining room table. And guests always.

Karen:        Always guests.

David:        Week after week after week.

Karen:        And then my father would introduce conversational topics that we would talk about at the table. So, it wasn’t just chit chat.

David:        I have wonderful memories of that.

Karen:        They were wonderful, weren’t they?

David:        Yeah. How about the passages in scripture? You come up with any of those that say hospitality is important. Because I haven’t really heard hospitality talked about all that much in churches.

Karen:        You know, David, as we were discussing this topic, I can’t remember one sermon that I’ve ever heard on hospitality. Now, there may have been some, but because it’s such a primary topic in my life, I would certainly have noticed it, and I think remembered it. But I can’t remember one sermon on hospitality.

David:        Can you remember any scriptures on hospitality? Maybe people could say, “Well, there’s nothing about the Bible in it.”

Karen:        Oh, goodness. It’s all over the scripture, Old and New Testament. I’ve got my book, Open Heart, Open Home, open. So, I’m just reading some of the verses I’ve compiled in the first part of the book. This is Christ.

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.”

Now, this is not directly a hospitality admonition, but it is a keynote to His ministry here on earth.

David:        I remember Jesus saying when you extend hospitality, don’t just invite your friends and neighbors and those people you like to be with, but also invite the poor and the lame and the blind and such. That’s a hospitality verse.

Karen:        Let me read that from Luke.

David:        Okay.

Karen:        “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, unless they also invite you in return and you will be then repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maim, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

David:        I’m thinking of Peter talking. This is New Testament Karen. It talks about hospitality.

“Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others. Faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms.”

So, this is talking by Peter here about the spiritual gift of hospitality.

Karen:        The King James Version translates 1 Timothy 3 to this way, “A bishop leader in the church then must be blameless. The husband of one wife, vigilant, sober of good behavior, given to hospitality.”

David:        Oh, wow. I knew that was coming. Yeah. Okay. Well, this is not just a woman’s topic. Although I think sometimes people understand it as a woman’s topic, but this is saying even those who are high in the church, they have to be given to hospitality. Let’s talk about just the fact that it’s not preached about that much in the church. Why would you think that is?

Karen:        David, I don’t know. I think it is considered sort of a woman’s prerogative in the past, mostly predominantly men preachers. So, I think there’s that that goes along with it. I think it’s even deeper than that. I think we are not attending to scripture that says we are to be a hospital of people. That’s one of the ways we show Christ’s love in the world. I don’t ever remember anyone preaching on hospitality, as I said before.

David:        Let me go in a different direction. Okay? I’m going to say these are what I would perceive as reasons why people don’t express hospitality in their own lives. One would be someone to say, “I’m not a good cook or my spouse is not a good cook.”

Karen:        Yeah. I don’t want to invite people into my home. It’s kind of not put together. It’s not about put together. All right. We’re so busy. We use the weekends to restore or the evenings to restore, to get really right down to it.

But if we had the scriptures in front of us and we were reading those scriptures that in the Old and the New Testament, emphasized in the Old Testament as well, we would have to say we are being disobedient by not practicing hospitality.

I think one of the things that hospitality does that it’s not really delineated this way in the scriptures is, it shows the world who God is. Or what he is like or how he is hospitable, how he does want to include all of us.

David:        How he welcomes us.

Karen:        How he welcomes us. Welcome is just a huge part of the meaning of Christianity.

David:        If you’re not a good cook, how do you respond to that directly?

Karen:        Oh, this is really easy. I’ve got a wonderful solution. You have everyone bring something.

David:        You’ve done that so many times. It just comes natural to you. And I think in some ways it ought to be easy for the church, but it doesn’t happen that much.

Karen:        Well, yeah, people often will say, “What can I bring to meal?” So, I decided that if we’re going to have people in our home all the time when we’re eating a meal together, which is actually one of the best ways to get to know one another. People relax when they’re eating. They tell stories around the table. They laugh.

It’s beautiful what happens. But when you have them come and sit at the table and you’re doing this a lot, then the easy thing to say to people is, “Would you mind bringing something we’ve had a bunch of people in our home? Salad, dessert, a beverage.”

David:        Have you ever had anybody say, no?

Karen:        Never.

David:        Never?

Karen:        I don’t want to.  I think they often will say, oh, I have this favorite recipe I love to use. Would you mind if I make that? And they’ll take care of the main course. I mean, it’s just wonderful. So, then I fill in where there’s lack, like an appetizer or the drinks or something like that.

David:        Someone else may say, “I don’t do it because I’ve been to your house. You have all of the dishes, and you have silverware and everything. I don’t have any of that.”

Karen:        Yeah, any of that, making a lovely table. I had a wonderful incident that happened early. We planted a church in this inner city of Chicago, Circle Church, and I’ve invited someone to come over and we had a two-bedroom apartment on the third floor. It was one of those weeks where you couldn’t get it all together. And I knew this gal was coming and I thought, oh, just let it be. Just invite her in as it is.

So, I did invite her in, and I said, “Come on in. It’s been a crazy week. I’ve been able to get myself all together here. I had this going on and we had to go here.” I remember she came in and she looked at the mess. It wasn’t just awful, but it was not complete ready by any means. And she looked at the living room and she then she looked at me and she said, “Oh, this is so wonderful.” Meaning the mess. “Now I think we can be friends.” I know she said, “I used to think you were perfect, but now I think we can be friends.” So, there you are. Lesson learned early in the gift of hospitality.

David:        I remember different individuals in that church, which is many years back now. So, these memories are still fresh with me who was single and had a little one room apartment she lived in. And she invited us to come. Do you remember her, Karen?

Karen:        Yeah, I do. And she was awkward socially as I remember. But you know, what a, for her courageous act and the loving act. And that meant all the world to us that she would have us over because very often people didn’t invite the pastor and his wife into their home. It was just one of those things that went on.

David:        Here’s the thing that I’ve had said to me. I don’t have a problem as far as the meals are concerned, but I don’t know how to direct the conversation. It seems like we just talk about surface things.

Karen:        Chit chat. Yeah. Well, I have a group of questions prepared in your mind.

David:        Cheat sheet.

Karen:        Cheat sheet. You can have it beside you say, “You know, these are some of the things that we’d like to know about one another. And often don’t get a chance to talk about.”

David:        Very simple. How did you become a believer?

Karen:        Yeah, how did you become a Christian?

David:        If it’s a person who’s a neighbor, maybe not a follower of Christ, you can say, “What is your experience in terms of spiritual or religious matters?”

Karen:        Yeah.

David:        Just interested in your journey.

Karen:        Yeah, what’s been your journey? Another great question is, who is someone in your life that really influenced you for the good that you look back on and you think of a mentor or someone you heard speak that changed your thinking. That question is always a great question.

David:        Not married. There are a couple of us that can come over, and I see people who are married, and they function very well in this meal thing but I’m a single.

Karen:        Out of place, yeah. Well, you just say, well, we’re having several unmarried folks over.

David:        There you go.

Karen:        And then you scramble like crazy. To get a couple other singles over.

David:        Oh, there’s so many different excuses people have. “I’m on a very tight budget and it just seems like it’s quite expensive to me to try to put all that together.”

Karen:        And it can get expensive if you’re doing the whole thing. Just have people come for dessert and you can even say bring a favorite dessert. We’re having a dessert evening.

David:        Or we’re having pizza.

Karen:        Yeah, or we’re having pizza.

David:        Yeah, all that. It’s just that somewhere to get the ball rolling is what we’re talking about. Do you think things have improved? Karen, the first publication of Open Heart, Open Home, and that’s a book on hospitality that was 48 years ago when that was first printed.

Karen:        And I’ve been told I’m not sure how this has been figured that it’s sold over a million copies in that time. It’s probably true if we had ever kept records.

David:        I kept records, yes. Past the million mark.

Karen:        It did past the million mark. It’s been for decades now in the marketplace. So, it keeps having impact and it’s the first book I ever wrote.

David:        I think it was the first book on that topic. Now there are a number of books on the topic. Very good books on hospitality.

Karen:        But it’s just had a wonderful role in people’s lives as far as this topic is concerned.

David:        I would like to read part of the favorite chapter of mine. It gets into entertaining as contrasted to hospitality.

Karen:        Oh yeah, that’s a good point.

David:        Secular entertaining, you write, is a terrible bondage. Its source is human pride, demanding perfection, fostering the urge to impress. It is a rigorous task master that enslaves. In contrast, scriptural hospitality is a freedom that liberates.

Entertaining says, “I want to impress you with my beautiful home, my clever decorating, my gourmet cooking.” Hospitality, however, seeks to minister. It says, “This home is not mine. It’s truly a gift from my master. I am his servant, and I use it as he desires.”

Hospitality does not try to impress but to serve. Entertainment always puts things before people. As soon as I get the house finished, the living room decorated, my place settings complete, my housework done, then I’ll start having people in. The so-and-sos are coming, I must buy that new such-and-such before they come.

Hospitality, however, puts people before things. We have no furniture? Well, we’ll eat on the floor. The decorating may never get done. Please come just the same. The house is a mess, but these people are friends. We never get to see them. Let’s have this time together anyway.

Because we are afraid to allow people to see us as we really are, we welcome the false ideal of entertaining. To perpetuate the illusion, we must pretend we love housework.

We never put our hair in rollers. Our children are so well disciplined that they always pick up their toys. We must hint broadly that we manage our busy lives without difficulty, working hard to keep people from recognizing our weak points. We also prevent them from loving us in our weakness. It’s all very strongly felt as I read it. It’s very much you, your passion.

Because hospitality has put away its pride, it doesn’t care if other people see our humanness. Because we are maintaining no false pretensions, people relax and feel that perhaps we can be friends.

Entertaining subtly declares, “This is mine. These rooms, these adornments, this is an expression of my personality. It’s an extension of who and what I am. Look, please and admire.” Hospitality whispers, “What is mine is yours.” Here is the secret of community that is all but lost to the church of today. And all who believe were together and had all things in common. That’s Acts chapter 2. The hospitality of that first century church clearly said, “What is mine is yours.”

Entertainment looks for a payment. The words, my, isn’t she a remarkable hostess? A return, dinner, invitation. A job advancement for self or spouse. Esteem in the eyes of friends and neighbors. Hospitality does everything with no thoughts or reward, but takes pleasure in the joy of giving, doing, loving, serving. The model for entertaining is found in the slick pages of women’s magazines where they’re appealing pictures of foods and rooms. The model for hospitality is found in the word of God.

I’ll stop there, but those are all very strong words.

Karen:        And when you think that the early church didn’t have an edifice like a church building, they met in their homes. This is where the church gathered. That was the model at that time. And I think we need to move more to that model, not exclusively so we do gather in place of worship on Sundays. We have our body life there in a variety of ways. Because it says so much about who these people are. They’ve invited us to their home, and we know them in indirect ways just by being in their homes in ways that you don’t normally get to know someone.

For instance, there can be a picture on the wall, and someone says, “It’s a beautiful piece.” And then you get the story behind the piece. “It was my aunt, Georgia’s, and she was a prize-winning artist and all of her things when she died were distributed around the family.”

Just charming little things like that that you wouldn’t get if you were not in that person’s home.

So, homes are very important, and we need to begin to use them, particularly David. And this is where I think we are so lacking, and I’m even including myself in on this one. We don’t have our nearby neighbors into our home. We don’t have them over for coffee.

When we lived in Oak Park, you knew your neighbors, your houses were close together. And every end of August, when the kids all go off to school, the first day they were gone, I would always have everyone over for a celebration. All the women over for a celebration. We had a wonderful summer, but the kids are back in school. We’re on the routine, you know. And it was just lovely. It was just lovely.

David:        I think as churches and hospitality, a lot of times there are potluck suppers, and those kind of things.

Karen:        And those are nice.

David:        They’re very nice. They’re wonderful. It’s hard to get to the intimate level of conversation because there’s a time limit in a sense that people come, and they don’t stay for several hours. If you have guests over, we had guests probably a month ago and the people stayed till about 11.30 at night. You know, now I’m old. And you know why they stayed so long? There was something happening. That was wonderful.

Karen:        That was beautiful in the group.

David:        There was a presence of the Lord. So, the potluck dinners is wonderful as they are. They tend to be more surface conversations.

Karen:        Right. How you are doing, and you know what’s going on. And then people ask, “How’s your kid doing in school?” And I mean, that does happen. That’s wonderful. But there’s much more intimacy and much more time to do that sort of thing when you have people in your home.

David:        And I can look back at our experience over the decades. And there have been numbers of occasions when around the table, after we’ve finished eating, there’s a continual conversation and it’s like Jesus himself comes and sits at the table with us.

Karen:        Yeah, something holy goes on, isn’t it?

David:        And there are tears.

Karen:        I think it’s the Holy Spirit comes among us in ways that we don’t always experience and when we’re together in groups. It’ll be tears, there’ll be laughter. I’ve never really told this to anyone, but I feel like a, you know, a revelation, a confession. It’s an extraordinary thing. It really is.

David:        Yeah, we can talk more about it, or we can go to a different topic. Are you all talked out on this one?

Karen:        I have to think about it a little bit and see if there’s more we need to say.

David:        Bottom line in your head. What would you say bottom line is?

Karen:        This is a draft, okay?

David:        Okay, a draft bottom line.

Karen:        When Christians practice spiritual hospitality, they show the presence of Christ to the people they include in ways that don’t happen with other settings. Yeah, thanks. It’s a draft.

David:        That’s a good draft. If you’re listening and you say, “Well, how would I say that?” Let us see what your draft is like.

Karen:        We’d love to hear it.

David:        Yeah.

Outro:       You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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