David: Karen has joined me once again after a month of working on a new book. We’ll also get an update on how she’s doing and also explore some of where I have been in my thinking regarding this important election year.

Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David: Okay Karen, you’ve had almost a month with no responsibility regarding the podcast. Have you made progress on the book or books?

Karen: I have three books in process, but there’s one I want to finish in case of demise.

David: Yes.

Karen: And it’s on listening. I began to understand just how important listening was about 20 years ago because I started listening groups. And David, I can’t even remember why I got them started or how. Somehow it just happened. I suppose when we went back to my journals, I might remind myself. We started to experiment with, you have three or four people who gathered.

David: Maybe friends.

Karen: Most of these didn’t know one another at all. I think there may have been some advantage to that. And we chit-chat a little bit. And then I would say, “Okay, let’s go into silent prayer and get ourselves ready to share and to listen.” And we would have silence for a while. And then I’d say, “All right, who’s ready to start?” And someone would say, “I think I’m ready to start.”

David: And that person knew that she or he, usually she’s a…

Karen: It was all women then, that I was working.

David: She would have then said, 10 to 15 minutes just to share where she was in her walk, not only other parts, but spiritual as well.

Karen: Yes, spiritual, just her life.

David: But it wasn’t just chit-chat. It wasn’t people coming together and all of a sudden superficial talk.

Karen: No, not at all. So then they would talk for 10 or 15 minutes. I mean, it was kind of an amazing process. When do we ever have a chance to do that with people who are just there to listen? Just because we’re usually interrupted. And then we would go into silence again. And it could be a very prayerful silence. But the listeners then had time to sort of consider what they had just heard. So, we weren’t jumping in conversation.

David: We were processing.

Karen: Yeah, processing.

David: So, there’s one person talking.

Karen: Yeah, the whole group would have a time to share, but one at a time. And so, then we could only respond by asking questions. So, there are no little lectures like, “Have you read this book?” and things that people generally say.

David: My guess is they were thoughtful questions.

Karen: They were because they’ve had that time to be silent. And so, you’d ask a question and then that person who had shared would respond to that question. And often after we would debrief what had happened a little bit in the group, they’d say, “You know, it was after people had asked me questions that I really understood what it was I wanted to say.” And I was in that fascinating process.

David: Well, the group help them process.

Karen: Yeah, just by asking questions. So, I began to see that there was something going on here I had not anticipated. I had a friend who was a trained psychological counselor and she and I prayed together once a week. And I was talking to her about this. And I’m not quite sure what’s going on. It’s just kind of remarkable. She said, “Well, how about if I attend your next cycle.…” Yeah, not as a visitor or an observer, but as a participant.

David: I don’t think you’d want an observer.

Karen: No, but I mean, that would be something that you might choose. So, she attended. And after our first listening group with her there, and they were all new to one another too, she said to me, “Do you know how soon that group went into safety?” Of course, not being a professional. I didn’t know what she was looking for. And I said, “No, tell me about it.” And so, she said, “Well, they entered into safety in that first original meeting. And none of them knew one another. And then she said, “That never happens.” Isn’t that intriguing?

David: It was fascinating.

Karen: Fortunately, we have a very good friend and donor, Roger Veeth, who is a neuroscientist and a neurosurgeon. And he and his wife would…

David: He’s a brain doctor.

Karen: He’s a brain neurosurgeon. That’s what brain doctors are. But he would come to Chicago for medical conferences. And if his wife came along with him, then.

David: That was better yet.

Karen: That was better yet. So, he would always call and take us out to some nice place. What’s a good restaurant in Chicago you kids have not been to? I mean, we were young then. And so, I was doing the listening groups and I started to talk to him about this. And I was thinking maybe he could give me some insight. And he said, “Well, have you been reading the latest research in the science of being heard and understood?” Now, that was not my language. I wasn’t using that language at all. And I wanted so badly to say, “Yes, isn’t not remarkable?” I had no idea what he was talking about. So, he started emailing to me some of his scientific material on what happens when someone feels heard and understood. There’s a major writer whose name is Daniel Siegel. And he was working with children in England who had been taken into the countryside during the Second World War for safety from the bombs that were falling on London. And so, I read his work and it was just remarkable. What he discovered was in that safe situation and talking with children and debriefing them out and giving them places to talk, that the neurological system in our body does what I call a happy dance because I don’t have the scientific words for it. But it rises to the occasion because it’s being heard and being understood, and you feel so good about it.

I mean, it’s just kind of incredible. So, he and I dialogue more, and he really took time to teach me about this. Then I understood what was happening in these listening groups.

David: People were feeling safe.

Karen: They were feeling safe. They were feeling heard. A lot of times we don’t feel heard because someone pops right in on what we’ve said or interrupts us. And they felt understood. Now that’s the key – being understood, feeling like you are understood. I mean, how many times does that really happen? Every once in a while, you get someone’s, “Oh, I get what you’re talking about.”

David: You’re helping us understand what it is you’re writing about.

Karen: Right.

David: And you haven’t finished the book yet.

Karen: No, I have so much material. And so, guess what I’ve done.

David: I know what you’ve done.

Karen: I’ve called the resident organizer to my project, who happens to be David Randall Mains, who’s sitting across from me. And I said, “Help, help me get my mind around all this material.”

David: You snookered me into the process. But I’ve said to you repeatedly, this is very, very helpful work that you’re doing. So, you’re coming along and I would say that you’re realizing that it’s a massive topic and it needs to be put into a certain framework that the reader can understand.

Karen: It’s basically all written, but it’s all in pieces or chapters or a radio broadcast. So, I’m needing your skills of organization to read it through with me and then help me frame the book.

David: So, Joel will take over the podcast starting next week. No, that’s not true. That’s not true. I’m still happy to be involved with you and with the podcast and with this exceptional time when you’re back once again.

Karen: I would appreciate the prayers of our listeners because I think this is a topic that really could go into the secular marketplace. And even with a Christian basis to it. And I think it would have an extraordinary impact.

David: You feel this is a calling.

Karen: I feel that it’s a calling that I need to write out into culture and not needed in the evangelical. There’s wonderful writers and evangelical publishing now these days, so younger ones. But this is a topic I think that I can give to the world in a more broader basis.

David: I’ve even been saying you have to read this part of what I’ve done. I think what has happened is you’ve talked about this topic many times. But now it’s a process of getting into book form and it’s hard to do that. So, you have a lot that you’ve written but not with that book in mind.

Karen: No, not with a book in mind at all.

David: So now in fact, even you’re needing me to help when you say organize. How do we even get a title for this book? We’re still wrestling.

Karen: Yeah, where do I begin? One of the interesting things I did in the listening groups was: have them write out a listening autobiography. And they go through the stages of their life, preschool, grade school, junior high, whatever those are onto their present age. And who were the people in your life during those stages of your life who listened to you? Then it was undiscovered there were some people who hadn’t had any listeners.

David: So, they had no one in their life that they would recall who gave them the time to listen carefully, ask questions, maybe so. That was very sad.

Karen: I have had listeners all my life. When I did my own listening autobiography. So, I’m a blessed woman and I need to impart this marvelous gift to the culture the best way I can. So, I would really appreciate people’s prayers.

I’m 82, I would like to finish it before I go in the next, I would say six months. We probably can get this all pulled together and make sure it fits. So anyway, that’s the only thing I want to say.

David: I want also just talk a little bit about Joel because Joel just came to the rescue. Didn’t know what he was getting into.

Karen: Joel is, he’s, I think 54. We had three sons, one died about 10 years ago of lymphoma. So, our children are precious to us because we know that you don’t have guarantees on their lifetime, nor do we in ours. But he went into film when he was going to school and got a degree in film. And he did several documentaries. In television, he was awarded five Emmys.

David: They’re impressive when you hold one of those things in your hand. He said, “Wow, this is really something.”

Karen: Yes,

David: So, Emmys are the equivalent of what in movies would be an Oscar.

Karen: Yeah, so anyway, he’s been a part of our life. And so, he’s stepping in here and doing the podcast with you while I’m trying to get all of these things out of my hair.

David: Now I get to talk about what I’m doing.

Karen: Yes.

David: I’ve been wrestling. Well, this came out of a conversation. This young man, college grad now, just trying to get to know him better. I said to him, “Have you registered to vote?” And he said, “No, I’m not really interested in either of the people running.”

Karen: Presidential candidate, is it?

David: Yeah. And I said, “Well, there are other people to vote for besides just presidency and such.” “No, I’m not really interested that much.”

Karen: We find this to be a trend among the younger people.

David: Well, it made me angry. I didn’t show that anger to the person. And it happened to be a person with church background. And I thought, this is not right. The whole heritage of who we are as a people and the church is a part of all that. Just say, I’m going to throw my opportunity to vote away. I have not approached the subject with this person. I don’t see him that often, but I want to be prepared next time. Or for any person like that who says, “I’m reading into it.”

Now, I’m above that, but that’s the feeling you get. It’s not important to me. That’s a better thing. So, I thought it’s also possible that in our churches, because we’re so fearful to politicize things, that we just avoid the topic. And the whole election has taken place, whatever the ultimate result is. We’ve missed this opportunity.

Karen: Well, the topic would be to register to vote. You exercise your citizenship. That has been granted to us by people who died for this privilege to vote as citizens.

David: For people in other countries, who would die for it?

Karen: Who would die for it? It’s only one vote. And sometimes people think, “Well, what does it matter?” It matters- is that you’re exercising that gift.

David: And that you processed who would be the best person in this given place in my mind. And it’s a phenomenal gift, I think, of the church where we’re a part. I would like to see Karen, a big poster, says, “I have registered to vote.” And then people can sign their name. And then you set a goal. Say you have 120 people, 125 people who come every Sunday on an average. Can we get 125 people who are part of this congregation?

Some of them can’t attend because they’re older or because they’re ill or whatever. But we have 125 people. It doesn’t matter if that given individual sign that or somebody else could sign it for that person. And say, “I am a registered voter.”

So, the importance of this heritage that is ours.

Karen: And the truth is, you don’t like either of the presidential candidates. There’s a whole down ballot of people to vote for local legislators. And so, I think this is a wonderful idea. But I think the people in the church who are responsible for this campaign need to then provide information about the down ballot voters. And that’s an easy thing to do because they all have websites. If they’re running for a candidate to see of any kind. But a synthesis of that for members of the congregation who don’t have time or inclination to do it can pick up a printed page and say, “Okay, This one that does this. And this is a Christian.” And you know that sort of stuff.

David: Some committee that begins to put those facts together. I just think it’s something that can be done without people hollering at each other.

Karen: Without rancor. Yeah.

David: And I see it as an important thing because just to withdraw, because of fear could be done on a lay level. You may not have to involve the staff or the pastor, anyone at all. And you also may realize that work has to be done on this. So that somehow, we can talk about this as a topic and not destroy one another.

Karen: I think it can be seen too as one of the ways we exercise our Christianity. Because this is a democracy. I believe democracy is part of God’s idea.

David: At least for the new country when there was a whole new start for the world.

Karen: What were the new start for the world that has been a beacon of light to the rest of the world? We don’t want to lose that place because we’re too casual to understand what a gift it has been given to us to be able to vote for our leaders. So, this is something that needs to be discussed, I think.

David: I try to put into a sentence. I want to make a disclaimer. This is not a biblical truth, but in a sentence this is where I am in my head and I’m wrestling with this more and more all the time.
In this important election year, churches would do well to set a goal of 100% of their adult congregation being registered to vote.

Karen: That’s a good sentence.

David: Yeah, okay, I’ll say it again. If it’s that good, maybe worth repeating. All right.
In this important election year, churches would do well to set a goal of 100% of their adult congregation being registered to vote. And if that is heard by people, they’re going to have to get moving on it pretty quickly because the months will go by very, very fast. And I think, again, it’s just kind of a prodding. Come on, we can do better than saying it’s too volatile to say anything at all. You know, you just leave it alone because it’s a landmine, it’s a spiritual landmine.

And I have other thoughts. I don’t want to say what they are right now, but I have those and I’m working with them and I’m willing to even share some of those thoughts and have people say that is the dumbest thought I’ve ever heard. You say and you’ve said a lot of dumb ones during your lifetime.

Karen: From time to time, your wife does say things like that.

David: I try to process it through my wife, but she’s very busy writing this book. And I help her, but she doesn’t help me, but you are helping me. And I appreciate that. I would like it if I could actually spark conversations all around.

What is the way Christians should respond in this era, not as to who they should vote for, but how we make this a part of the norm of living here in this wonderful democracy. So anyway, okay, I have pledged that I will help you with your book. Obviously, that’s going to require a certain amount of time. And I’m willing but you have to help me when I come to these places because next week you may not be here with me. And it may be Joel. And I will have to work through with him. How we say things, as well as how I’ve tried to work through with you on this first crack at this, okay?

Okay, I’m satisfied. You’re still a good partner.

Karen: And you’ve been heard, and you’ve been understood.

David: I won’t get in your book. I know that that’s not going to happen, but it’s not appropriate anyway. I’ve said, “Lord, I don’t want to be like this conversation with this young person.”
You could tell he was an intelligent person. I want to say, “Okay, just hear me that I’m struggling.” I don’t like where we are as a church that just remains silent, you know? And pretends as though it’s kind of spiritual not to talk about it at all. Or that we’re too emotionally volatile as Christians that we can’t talk decently and helpfully. I’m discovering new routes here. I think that’s a good thing, okay?

You’re going to have another week where you’re not thinking about the podcast and I have to deal with Joel, huh? Joel is a great person, and he talks politics and we’re not on the same page all the time. And I have learned,

Karen, that one of the best things that I can do is listen and not talk. And just listen and say at the end of a conversation, “I heard what you said and I’m processing it and I don’t know where I’m going to come out at the present. Your sources are different from my sources, but I’m working on it with you, and I thank you for allowing me just to hear what your thoughts are.”

So anyway, it’s a minefield. I know that and probably after I get my right leg blown off, I should have listened to people who said, “Be careful here.”

Karen: No, I think you do, well. I think you do, well.

David: Enough for the day.

Outro: You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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