Joel:       This is Joel Mains. I am David Mains’ son and I’m with my father David Mains. And we’re going to be talking about some hot topic today. Dad, how are you doing?

David:     I’m doing okay. Karen’s doing all right as well. She’s making progress. In fact, quite a bit of progress. She said this last week on the book she’s working on.

Joel:       That’s right. And she’ll be back here with you in your regular schedule and once she kind of finishes that up. So, we’ve been trying to do interviews with you and maybe talk about topics that you don’t talk about as much on the podcast. And then maybe kind of get these into more of a story form talking about your past and that gives me an opportunity to learn some things. And then hopefully as our listeners are joining us, they get to see a side to you that maybe they don’t get to see all the time.

David:     Received a word from people already that that’s been the case which is I’m very pleased about that.

Joel:       Yeah, that’s great. At the end of the program, you can hear how to contact us if you have questions you’d like us to ask. Of course, we always love that feedback. Today though we’re going to take on a topic that maybe is not common and we’re going to be talking about money and how that works with ministry. So, stick around.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his son, Joel Mains. Here’s David and Joel Mains.

Joel:       Okay, so Dad growing up people often ask me what it was like to be David Mains’ son or David and Karen’s son grow up in the Mains family. Or people who maybe didn’t know who you were if they’d find out I was a preacher’s kid or something like that. Many times, they would have preconceptions on what that means especially if you would say, “Oh he had a radio ministry” or something like that. So, of course their brain goes to scandals. They go to, you know, these preachers with jets and things like that. That was not and not our experience growing up. Decidedly middle-class I’d say. And I’m thankful that I didn’t have those conflicts as a preacher’s kid to grow up and see you driven by money and not where your heart was. People maybe get an idea of what though when you’re on. How many stations was Chapel of the Air the radio broadcast on?

David:     About 500 stations. Yes.

Joel:       And even though these are Christian radio stations, out of benevolence of their heart, they don’t air you for free. So, you are paying for that time. And that means each of those stations is saying, “Well if you want to air your program, you’re going to pay us this much time for that.” Those are huge, huge bills. You are not, I would say of all your fantastic qualities, you are not a businessman at heart.

David:     And they don’t teach you in seminary how to look after money things necessarily. It’s more area preaching and so on. So yeah, I’ve never been money oriented. I don’t know why that is. Did you think you were raised in a poor family? I don’t think so.

Joel:       No, I would say definitely. When people ask me, I’d say middle-class we were middle-class. Middle-class is a big range. I mean there are subdivisions with starter castles. But when people say, “Oh that’s upper middle-class.” I would say, “We were just kind of a middle-class family.” At the same time, you started very, very meager in your beginnings. I mean people can talk about Circle Church, which was this intercultural church in the inner city that you started. But the other side to that is when you’re having, I don’t know, hippies and people of that demographic in they’re not always people who can support.

David:     We were in a poor neighborhood.

Joel:       Right. So, tell me, let’s start at the beginning with money with you. And how did you even support yourself when I was a kid like growing up or prior to me being around?

David:     When you were growing up, probably what, I was in Circle Church ministry at that time?

Joel:       Yes.

David:     That seemed fair. The ministry was located on the near west side of Chicago, poor neighborhoods. That’s all changed now. It’s all gentrified and they’re very wealthy those homes. They’ve been fixed up. So, but money-wise I never really was interested that much in money. I felt strongly about seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things, whether it’s clothes or in today’s world cars or homes, that never interested me. And to her credit, it wasn’t something that drove Karen. She, Karen, is very frugal as you know.

Joel:       Yeah.

David:     Your mom, money just didn’t have that interest. And it showed itself in ways other than just keeping the checkbook. I’m not bad at math, but I didn’t think about money that much. It just wasn’t on my mind. I would say, “Jesus said seek first the kingdom and his righteousness” and things like your food, your clothing, your shelter, all those would be taken care of. And God always did that. And that just wasn’t on my mind. And it hasn’t been on my mind. People would say, “You know, if you could come and speak for us, would you just help us and let us know how much it will cost us?” I never, in my entire ministry, said to somebody’s going to cost you this amount of money.

Joel:       Well, how did you work that out? What did you do then?

David:     I’d say whatever is in your budget or if you want to you know, just take it between you and the Lord. And people have been generous. I have stories of people doing things that just kind of amazed me as far as their generosity was concerned.

Joel:       I Imagine people listening don’t always think about the nuts and bolts of someone raising a family that’s in a ministry. And maybe, you attend a bigger church and then some big, a bigger name author comes in and does a lecture or something like that. Those people are paid for that is their ministry. But often those people have a set rate and you’re going through, and they may be thousands and thousands of dollars to come speak at a church. I’m not calling anybody out, but I’m just saying these are the economics of how some of these things work.

David:     I was an anomaly, I think. And I don’t necessarily feel proud about that or anything about it. But getting money was not an interest area to me. I had other areas were demons in my own life, but that wasn’t one of them. And I think that you kids, you know, you look back on our lives, we live pretty normal lives. Karen and I have been to like 50 different countries and we didn’t pay our way to go to those countries. Usually, we would be invited for some reason or another. I have nothing but gratitude to the Lord. I don’t feel cheated. And I’m really glad that I wasn’t wired that way.

Joel:       It’s a huge trap for…

David:     Money! All that much.

Joel:       For some people for sure. And then your identity comes out of well, how much fee am I charging and how much fee can I…  it’s just a trap for some people.

David:     There are those people and they hit the headlines in a certain way. I don’t know. But money-wise, I’m kind of interested in terms of looking back and saying, “How did you kids feel about it?” I don’t know you can’t speak for the other three, but…

Joel:       I mean, I think we had money. So, I didn’t. It wasn’t really a concern for me. Though, I do remember, like growing up, very being I guess we would say very poor or very lower class as far as I remember, Christmas we had a back Bolton board, and we’d thumbtack the paper bags to the bulletin board. And then all the kids would go to stores and we put in the candies and stuff. And then at Christmas, that was our presents, I remember that now. That was a wonderful experience. So, it was it’s not a negative memory to me at all.

But, when I think back as an adult, you think back and say, “Well, why were we pinning paper bags to a bulletin board and then filling them with candy for Christmas, right?”

So clearly, you know, and I remember some dinners that were popcorn or Doritos or something like that or a can of ravioli or something like that. So, I certainly have memories of that but not hunger. Never hunger. And you allowed us to grow up and not think about that as “Need to worry about this.”

David:     I don’t think you’re a money person. Are you?

Joel:       No, I’m not a money person.

David:     I would say other members of the family are moneyed. They think about it more because one case that just interested in making money. Neither good nor bad other people who are hurting money wise. That’s just normal people, you know, where we were in all of this. I would say that God blessed us in absolutely incredible ways. How many people can tell stories like I can tell individuals who and one way or another just absolutely were amazing to us as far as their generosity. And who believed in us totally. And said, “You don’t need to tell anybody. Just take it and just be grateful. We’re grateful as well that we can get to give it to you.”

Joel:       Well, when I think of growing up, there were definitely times where something would come up and you would say, I would hear you and mom talking or something, “Well, I don’t know how we’re going to cover that or pay for that.” And then, just many, many times a check would come in the mail from the supporter or friends or maybe one of mom’s books sold very well. And it was kind of an astounding thing because it usually covered what the need was. It wasn’t ever like bounty, but it was like, “Oh, we need,” you know, whatever the furnace went out and we need you know $8,000 or something and then boom $8,000, you know $8,010 might come in or something like that. That was kind of an interesting lesson to see over and over.

David:     And there were times when people were even more generous than that. I was paid a salary. I don’t ever remember arguing with Youth for Christ board. Or arguing with the elders or deacons in a church. It was almost like it was immaterial. But the thing that I recall, in terms of the ministry, and Karen would say the same thing, is just the incredible generosity of people. People knew we were not moneyed individuals. We weren’t driven by money. In fact, sometimes it would be embarrassing because people would be so nice that I didn’t know how to thank them adequately. And I’m talking people who gave gifts in the tens of thousands of dollars to us individually. And your immediate response was, “Thank you Jesus! How did that person know that we were hurting?” I don’t know.

Joel:       I think there’s a side to putting that in a proper way that can be very healthy. Saying this is a means to buy things and food. But then there are obviously people who are phenomenally gifted in this area.

David:     Yes, and financially.

Joel:       Right! It’s easy on the outside not to be that way to sometimes you can go, “Oh, well those people only care about money,” but really this is a gift that they have.

I’m just saying that we never really talked about this. What are your feelings on that?

David:     On such people, I had breakfast the other day, in fact went to church with an individual. She’s now a widow. Her husband was a jeweler. And I would not say they were filthy rich by any stretch of the imagination, but they were generous. And numerous times in our life they would gift us, either to the ministry which then could catch us up on the back payment that we had coming, or whatever. And I remember they had a lot. I think they were planning someday to build on that lot and it was in a good location. And she came and said, “I don’t think we’ll ever need this lot and so we’re going to give it to your ministry.” Which I mean those are absolutely… they’re jaw-dropping because it’s not something that you yourself have ever done in another way.

Joel:       Right!

David:     And I saw her recently. She doesn’t live nearby. So, you kind of go out of your way to talk to people. And I just thanked her. For several times and major way, she cared for our ministry. And I’m not even sure how she first heard about it. Probably heard about it because of the broadcast. But I thanked her. And I thank such people because they have gone far and beyond out of their way.  

I tell another story. Maybe I’m not as smart as I thought it was as far as finances, a little bit embarrassing to me.

Joel:       Well, okay.

David:     We were accused by some individuals I never met most of them personally. One of them I knew well personally.

Joel:       Let’s put this in a context. How long ago was this?

David:     I’m talking about 19, the end of the 1900s.

Joel:       90s you’re saying to

David:     90s to 2000.

Joel:       Okay. And you’re in the radio broadcast. You’re doing the TV show. Then…

David:     We were coming to the end of the radio broadcast because it was a national thing that people accused us of being new age. Now that’s kind of silly because that’s the last thing in the world that we were. But it’s very difficult to defend yourself and people want to know the answer to your questions. We were devolved. We were overwhelmed, I should say, with people asking questions because these were in national medias who said, “The Mainses are new age.”

Joel:       Well, you kind of got on the witch hunter list. It’s because these were Christians who, I imagine, they thought they were doing the right thing. But it’s a little hard to tell and some of their methodology is so gruesome. But, you know, accusing you and then you get on one mailing list and then of course people are copying the other mailing list. This is pre-internet so thankfully…

David:     That’s really an interesting point because if it had been after internet, it would have been overwhelming.

Joel:       Yeah, well, you also would have had other easier ways to combat it though. You would have had a website that you could have put up and answered, not just hundreds of letters, but you know, just here’s you can answer it once and then a hundred people can go to it.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       So, I don’t know.

David:     Anyway, I forgot what I was…

Joel:       We’re talking about the finances of that. That was an absolutely destructive time.

David:     Oh, here’s my dumb. Here’s my dumb thing that I did. We owed a lot of bills because stations were taking us off. We were losing donors. And I came to the place where I said, “I don’t know how we’re going to make this.” And then the biggest problem we did was call a 50-day spiritual adventure every year. And in order to do that, you had to stockpile all of the materials for churches.

Joel:       For thousands and thousands of churches.

David:     Thousands of churches.

Joel:       Warehouses, all books, and materials.

David:     Then you advertise it from the start of the new year after Christmas up until right before Easter. And that’s when the 50-day spiritual adventure began. It was during that critical time period when these accusations came that we were new age. And all of a sudden, what we anticipated, the sale of all these materials, we were ready to service churches with, they were gone. Because people had congregation members who came to their pastor and said, “We’ve heard that the Chapel of the Air Ministry with the Mains is his new age. Is that so? Let’s not do the adventure this year.”

So, we had all of these materials we had prepared. And I thought, “Well, I don’t know if we’ll ask this out or not because I never faced that before.” Every year you’d had to project and say, “How many do we figure are going to go on the adventure this year?” And you’re talking about tens of thousands of people.

When that happened, bills came in. Stations started to drop us, without them ever talking to us, because they were getting pressure from the Air Ministry.

Joel:       You’re on for 20 years and then just suddenly you’re not on.

David:     Yeah. And how was I going to cover those costs?

I thought, you know what? I have good credit. I will start to pay some of these in increments through my own credit cards, which was a stupid, stupid thing to do.

Joel:       You put them on your credit cards?

David:     Yeah, to mix those that were my own.

Joel:       So, hang on. So, you’re saying, I didn’t know all of this. So, you’re saying when everything kind of fell apart, you have these bills you have to pay, you still have a staff. And to cover people’s salaries, you put it on your credit card.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       Okay, I would say that’s probably not the business. That’s not your, showing maybe that’s not your business.

David:     More than stupid.

Joel:       Okay, well. But you’re trusting the Lord here.

David:     Yeah. I came to the place where, I couldn’t pay those credit card bills, because they were just too high. And one of my friends called me, and he said, “How are you doing?” I said, “You know what? I’ve never been lower in my life. And I got these companies calling me saying, ‘We’re going to sue you’” and all that. And he said, “How much do you owe on your credit cards?” And I said, and none of them were my bills. They were ministry bills.

Joel:       So, it’s not like you went out and bought things?

David:     No, and I said, and I lied. I made it less than what it was.

Joel:       Was you embarrassed?

David:     Yeah, of course, I was embarrassed, humiliated. And it was $250,000 plus dollars

Yeah, all of a sudden, I’d never had any problem credit wise, even though we weren’t all that well off. I would just pay regularly, it was normal. And he said, “How much?” And I said, “It’s $250,000.” And he said, “Ooh my gosh.” And then he said, “I’ll get back to you.”

Now this is not a person who’s a businessman. He’s what I would call in a ministry, somewhat like my own ministry. And he called in about, it was about a week and a half later. And he said, “I put a check in the mail. And it’s for you.” And in fact, if I told you who it was, I didn’t know, I’m surprised you don’t even know who I’m talking about. But he didn’t tell me how much it was. It came a couple of days later, it was $250,000. And I thought, “Ooh my God, I can’t believe that he did that.”

And I understand that there was a change, there had been a death with his family, and there was money in the family. But I don’t need them thinking those terms. And I said, “Lord, I’ll never make that mistake again.” And I wrote out all those bills into the place where I was back to, “Ooh, no money again.”

And I can’t tell you how incredibly freeing that is. It’s like somebody literally took a great big sack off your back and you thought you were going to wear that thing until the day you died. And that was a wonderful story. And so that somebody would do that, absolutely do that. He didn’t do it to the ministry, he did it to me because I had to pay those bills myself.

And I had several times like that. In fact, recently, Joel, you did some remodeling in our house here. We’ve been in this house, I don’t know how many years, probably we’re close to 50 years now. And it came to the place where it needed repair. And another very, very wonderful supporter of the ministry said, “I felt led of the Lord to send you this.” And I opened the envelope and it’s unbelievable to me. There was a $60,000 check made out to me and to Karen. She said, “I just want this so that you can do some of the things you’ve always wanted to, but never been able to. We sold a property, and you are to be benefited.”

Well, those are stories that I look at and I say, “God, you’re amazing. How could you personalize and how did you make that connection for that person to know that we needed.” In fact, what do we have, Joel, the whole kitchen was remodeling.

Joel:       Well, yeah, we were able to do a lot of things. So, my folk’s home, you know, the carpet was 30 years old and, you know, the appliances were about the same.

David:     I feel like I’m living in the Taj Mahal now.

Joel:       Well, yeah, yeah, it was a ton of work. We did as cheaply as we could. But now your floors are clean, and they don’t squeak. And it was a lot of making things safe for you. So, the tripping things are not here. But I want to get to then, what’s the takeaway from this because clearly not everybody is going to have that experience. So, as you’re telling me, what would you say is your lesson for money and God’s providence?

David:     Probably it would be, don’t feel sorry for yourself. The Lord has you covered. In fact, if I take it out of the individual gifts to us so that we could do what needed to be done, just to be still effective in ministry, there were people who did incredible things when we went so far behind as a broadcast because you’re paying airtime bills and all this. Whereas I was $250,000 behind that I’d put on my private accounts. The chapel was really deeply, deeply behind because the whole year of the adventure was gone. And all those materials, eventually we couldn’t even use them, which was so sad.

But in the middle of that, there was a telecaster who had a national television program, which was very popular, that he was the key person on. And he took a lot of those proceeds and put them in a private account that he could give. And Joel, now I’ll start to cry. Okay, I’m okay now, I’ve got the gulp down. He sent us a check for over a million dollars, not to us personally, but to the ministry. And because of people like that, the ministry was able to close out, pay all bills. We don’t owe anybody anything. And I see what God has done in so many ways during my life. And just, you keep talking about the kingdom, to help people what you know about Jesus. And He will cover your backside. He’s been very good at that. I just say, “Thank you, Lord.” I don’t know what I would have done. I was absolutely at the end of where I could have gone on much longer, just because of the pressure of all that.

Joel:       I mean, I guess you would have had to declare bankruptcy.

David:     Yeah, you could have declared bankruptcy. That’s all you can do.

Joel:       Right, which would have been a very different outcome.

David:     Very different and very embarrassing and all that. God has been very good to us. We have good reputations. We feel very loved by the Lord. We feel very loved by people. I’ve often said that I’m different now because, you know, you used to have your office send out thank you notes for people’s support of the ministry that you’re in. Now I sign all those letters, I sign them. But right personal notes to a lot of people and say, “Because of people like you, I’m able to minister. And I want you to know everything that we’re able to do in our ministry, you share in a part of that. And I mean that sincerely.”

And so, it’s been a whole different walk that I never intended in terms of my life. But I’m just very, very grateful to the Lord. I’m almost like, I got stories like God says, “You’re supposed to pay the taxes to Rome, Peter, ‘Go fish. The first fish you pull in, he’s going to have a coin in his mouth and cover for us.’” And then that’s out of our way for a while.

Joel:       Just as your son, I kind of want to make, just clarify a couple of things here. Cause when you start talking numbers like this, it can sound like there’s a responsibility. I worked at a big idea, which is Veggie Tales. I was an editor there. We don’t talk much about my experience, but I was there during their fall from grace, I guess that you would say.

David:     Terrible accusations.

Joel:       Yeah. Well, not accusations as much as just, when you have a success and your business is growing, when it takes those turns, the numbers add up very, very quickly. So, if you’re on X amount of stations airing daily, you’re paying X amount, you know, a couple hundred.

David:     We were on 500 stations. Just a little over 500.

Joel:       500 stations daily, almost every day. Those numbers add up in ways that the average person would go, “Well, how would you possibly have a debt like that?”

Well, go print materials for thousands and thousands of churches, fill a warehouse full, and suddenly some of the printers is going to say, “Hey, I need that money.”

So, I just want to make sure, as your son, I want to defend just in case people are thinking that. So, we’re not into, you know, oh, you were driving big fancy cars, because that’s not, you know, I mean, we were in a station wagon for most of my life, even when you were in the ministry.

David:     Big idea is a very good illustration. Yeah, the veggie tails was huge. That’s huge.

Joel:       And it changes overnight. Something happens and then.

David:     For which you’re not necessarily responsible. You may be dumb, or you may be, I’m not saying that Phil was dumb at all. But they went through the same kind of experience we did. How in the world could this have happened? You know, but the world happens.

Joel:       Right. But I see it’s growing up and we’ll have to wrap up here soon. But you and mother have a way of relying upon God’s care, I guess. And you could say benevolence. But you have over years learned to trust that God would provide and care for you. He doesn’t seem to provide you an abundance. And some ministries have an abundance that we don’t need to like figure out why that’s the case, right? But you’ve had incredibly faithful supporters who over the years have seen your integrity and then still support. Which is amazing to me. But you are given your daily bread, you know. Give us this day our daily bread. That seems to be where God works with you. Is that fair?

David:     Yes, that’s fair. Praying before a meal is easy for me because God has made it possible for me not to go hungry. And I’m grateful for that. It’s not just a routine we go through. Yeah, and the house that we live in, the clothes that we wear, God says you take care of the kingdom things and I’ll take care of those things for you. And yeah, I don’t go around in tatters. I am just very grateful to the Lord. I’m grateful for those experiences and it’s drawn me closer to Him. And Karen would say the same thing.

Joel:       Mom’s very much that way. I think she enjoys watching God come through for you too.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       Wouldn’t you say that? I mean, she’ll sometimes… “Just wait, God will provide.” It’s kind of an interesting lesson growing up as a child.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       I’ve seen that. Well, I appreciate you talking about these things because this is not a comfortable topic, but I do think this is part of ministry and then an area that trips up a lot of ministries too.

David:     I wouldn’t say a lot, but enough that they get enough notoriety or whatever. I don’t envy those people in any way. It’s an insidious trap. Yeah. So that’s one of my deficiencies here. So, I’m not the greatest when it comes to…

Joel:       But you’re not a businessman. Saying I’m not a businessman is not the worst sin on the planet, Dad. Not the worst sin on the planet to say, you know.

David:     What are we going to talk about next time? Being overweight or what?

Joel:       I don’t know what we’re going to talk about next time. We’ll have to figure it out and maybe someone will give us some ideas. But lessons you can leave with me and other people here before you go. And it’s been wonderful to have these conversations with you, Dad. I appreciate it very much.

David:     I appreciate your part and all of the family.

Outro:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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