Joel:       Well, hello again. Welcome to the podcast. This is Joel Mains and I’m here with my dad. How are you doing today dad?

David:     I’m okay. It’s kind of funny to look across and see you and you have a beard. All the times I’ve done these with Karen. I’ve never seen her with a beard.

Joel:       No, I’m not going to look like mom and thankfully she doesn’t look like me. That’s good for her and both of you, I guess. We don’t prepare these so we’re trying to be spontaneous and take some workload off you as you age and get older and try to work into this. I think you said this week, but you said you wanted to take on a really tough topic today. So okay. Well, we’re going to be getting into a heavy one today. Everybody stick around.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his son, Joel Mains. Here’s David and Joel Mains.

Joel:       Lay it on us. What are we going to talk about?

David:     I’m doing a lot of reflecting. Big sections of my life. I’d like to talk about the problem that I have had, and it relates to you as well.

Joel:       My son, your son?

David:     Yes. No, not you, but my workaholism which was a big part of my past and I know that brought pain to family members including yourself.

Joel:       Right.

David:     So, I’m just looking at big blocks of time in my life because it’s first time I’ve had a chance to really reflect that much on the years that the Lord has given me.

Joel:       Okay. So, you want to take on workaholism. That’s kind of a word that people use very loosely in the world. They can kind of just mean I’m a hard worker. I’m a workaholic you know, and they can kind of do that. But I would say in our family that probably does not carry that connotation. It’s kind of a painful word for us.

David:     When, you would say you were aware of this being a problem? Your Dad.

Joel:       I think it came to a head probably in college for me. That’s when we started to really work through our issues. I mean from my angle it was neglect or like feeling like you weren’t there. We didn’t have a word for it at the time.

David:     Well, there’s some good that has come out of all of that.

Joel:       Of course.

David:     I was oblivious, in fact, I remember the tears when talking with you and how much pain you felt that I wasn’t there. I was always somewhere else.

Joel:       Mentally or physically you’re both for sure.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       Well, the good news is this is not a downer program because you’ve made some amazing progress in this area and have some great healing. I think people will like hearing about that as well. But I do think you’ve always said workaholism is kind of one of the sins in the church that is encouraged. It’s you know you kind of get into courage about it.

David:     Yeah, people think that you’re a very dedicated follower of Jesus.

Joel:       Right. So, it’s easy to maybe glorify it a little bit. When do you think that first started getting addressed in our family?

David:     Well, it was because others brought it up. I remember Karen talking about it and I kind of sloughed it off. I didn’t think about it that much. I thought that I was the ideal husband in a lot of ways. But when she began to express emotion more, you know, “You’re not there.” I would say, I didn’t know how to say no to anybody. It’s just whatever job was there that was an opening door from the Lord.

Joel:       …and every job is done with 100% of effort.

David:     I would say that I shared also in the problem of perfectionism. Yes, I wanted to do the best job possible. And did in a lot of ways. But it took a toll because I wasn’t there for Karen and obviously the rest of you as the children. You guys said, “I wasn’t there for you as well.”

Joel:       Right! Well, let’s maybe back this up a little bit so we can put a context for people because it’s a big label we’re kind of putting on you. You started out in the ministry in the inner-city church in Chicago – Circle Church in the 60s.

David:     Building from scratch.

Joel:       Right! So, that was a huge amount of work for sure because you’re starting a church. You’re doing something groundbreaking. It’s a multi-racial church. So, you had a lead pastor that was white, Caucasian, African-American and Asian.

David:     I mean you had a woman on staff.

Joel:       And a woman on staff. I mean these things were, I mean, they would still be kind of make people look twice and say, “Oh that’s very interesting.” So, here you’re talking in the 60s. You don’t even have a vernacular for some of the things you were doing. Lots of work. I was very, very young but I’m assuming lots of conflicts. Lots of trying to work through very complex issues. Is that fair?

David:     Sure of course.

Joel:       Okay.

David:     Been there done that. And all the mistakes you could make I made all of them.

Joel:       Oh, right. Okay? And then you move into radio, which is a nationally syndicated radio program, 15 minutes six times a week. And that was a very different kind of work. You don’t have the pastor type of work but you’re just cranking out program after program day after day.

David:     You do well for the first two or three months. Then all of a sudden, there are more programs to be paid than you’re capable of making that often.

Joel:       Anyone who’s worked in a job like that, whether it’s television or maybe someone who writes a syndicated column or something like that, understands the grind. It is like a train that you think you’re going to be conducting. But what really doing is shoveling coal into the cane the train for just ever. It never stops. And your best program is yesterday’s program. So, you need tomorrow’s program.

David:     You’re talking in analytical way now. But when you talked about who I was, there was a lot of pain because my first priority was get those deadlines done. And it didn’t leave any time for people like you.

Joel:       Right.

David:     And it’s not just you and the family. The others in the family felt the same thing.

Joel:       Well, and I would say for all of the great things about your mom, grandma, she was also a huge perfectionist on you as well. I remember distinctly you are talking about when you graduated high school. You had a memory where you don’t tell people about that because you graduated very high in your class.

David:     I was number two in the class. It was about a thousand kids in high school. So, it was a relatively big school. Not like, maybe a Chicago school. But yeah, I came in number two in the class. And my mom’s got to, hit the red on my mom, but her comment was “How did you let that girl beat you out.”

Joel:       Yeah. It’s terrible thing to say to you. Now, you had not told them? Is that correct? So, it was kind of a surprise to them that you would… What is you? Salutatorian? Is that what that is.

David:     I have no idea. It was number two. I know that and number two wasn’t number one. And my mom had a lot of good qualities. I’ve been very grateful for my parents. I think, I’ve shared that many, many times. But that kind of set me up. You never achieved. There was always something more that you could do.

Joel:       Right.

David:     And yeah, I was kind of born and bred in that kind of a male you.

Joel:       And you had very successful siblings on both sides older and younger. You weren’t athletic. You weren’t, you know, things like that. Uncle Doug was a renowned orthopedic surgeon.

David:     Yes.

Joel:       Your sister Donna, phenomenal piano player. So, some of the things you excelled in were not maybe above.

David:     You’re making me feel like I have a good excuse for being who I was.

Joel:       Well, no. But I think it places it in some kind of context that which was helpful for me as I was working through my own pain. But then you get into the broadcast which becomes this slog, I guess is what, you know, and that kind of consumed you.

David:     You finish one recording. And you immediately go to your desk and begin to work on what you’re going to do for the next day. And that’s six days a week. And on top of that, I was continually coming up with new ideas which involve pastors around the country.

Joel:       You’re talking about the 50-day spiritual adventure and sermon series.

David:     Those are both examples. That took a huge amount of work. I didn’t hire as professional person as I should have. I always saw the potential in people. But sometimes didn’t see why that potential was not always being realized.

Joel:       Right. Or maybe it’s fair to say not everybody was willing to be on the treadmill like you were. So, people are like, “Hey I don’t want to live that way.”

David:     Yeah. Workaholism is a form of idolatry though. Is that you take great pleasure in what you’re doing especially as you’re successful. But you were cheated, other members of the family were cheated, and I would say that God was cheated you know. I knew what it was to talk about prayer put together a sermon on prayer, but I didn’t know what it was to actually live in the milieu of constant communication with the Lord in a sense of finding his approval in terms of what I was doing

Joel:       Okay. Well, I hear you say that. I don’t know if that’s completely fair because I have many memories of like waking up in early in the morning going into the kitchen, and you would be in your study kneeling praying for revival or something like that. So, I don’t want to make it sound like you were not a person of prayer because you certainly were. I know if my father ever says he’s going to pray for you, believe me, you’re going to be on a list. And that he’s going to pray through. That’s going to be something he follows through on.

David:     Workaholism, however, over time it’s like probably alcoholism in a sense. The first drink is not a problem. But over time it begins to take over your life. And in that sense, it becomes idolatry because there’s a great sense of joy and fulfillment in what is going on. And getting other people, including your family, to support you in what is going on. And when a family member says, “I don’t like it that you weren’t there for the play that I was in” or whatever. There’s no explaining after a while. You’ve created a monster.

Joel:       Yeah, and I think like when I was in plays in high school, I tend to remember you being there. When I was in baseball, neither you or mom, I think, I had 13 games, and you guys came to one game. and I never played baseball. That’s because you’re gone all the time. You were flying and speaking. And if I had been a part of your kind of kid, my house, you guys were just gone all the time. I probably drove to the airport more than anybody in my high school because I was driving there dropping you off, picking you up, you and mom, both of you. So, it was probably home alone. When I say alone, I mean Jeremy and me at that point because Randall and Melissa were in college. Probably, four days a week you were with us and the other days you were not.

David:     We would take turns as to who would be traveling on a given weekend.

Joel:       But a lot of times you were later was together too. You were both speaking. But I think some of my other memories of you were you would write at the table. So, you’d have your briefcase out on the dining room table, and you would just be working. So, just many memories of walking through the house and there’s dad, there’s dad, there’s dad. So, you’d go to the office but then maybe you wouldn’t finish, so you’d come home, work at the table which for my personality… every child can adapt with this differently. Me, I kind of felt like well, he’s doing God’s work. What’s my little problem compared to that? Right? So, I didn’t want to interrupt you. I felt like I was interrupting something.

David:     Yeah, your older brother would be more prone to interrupt.

Joel:       Yeah, and younger Jeremy would just be like, “You’re my dad. You’re going to deal with me,” which would drive you crazy sometimes.

David:     He had no concept of…

Joel:       The pressure.

David:     The x number of hours left before you had to go into the studio again.

Joel:       Right. But I do think, to nail home some of these things physically, if you would come to our house now mom always has the dining room table set. It’s always set. It’s beautiful. She does a wonderful job. She has an elegant style. So, if it’s seasonal. The whole table is always set for dinner or for company.

David:     For lunch.

Joel:       But I think a lot of that was because that was her way of taking back that space and say, “No you’re not going to take over this. I am going to make sure that you can’t put your stuff out on the table because it’s such a hassle to move all the settings and the things like that.” But those are some of the ways it manifested in the house of dealing “How do we deal with dad who can’t get his head out of the work?”

David:     And there’s a height of that. I enjoyed, you enjoyed success. Enjoyed…

Joel:       …the kudos.

David:     Yeah. They come. I’m at the place now where, if I go into the grocery store, nobody knows who I am. I remember the days when that wasn’t the case. You’d have people point and kind of whisper.

Joel:       Well, and I would say in our area that was more than that. I mean if we would ever go out to eat more than likely someone was going to stop us and say, “Hey, you’re David Mains.” And then people are nice and kind. But they’re also didn’t really understand space. So, you’re with your dad and then someone comes in and monopolizes five ten minutes of your time. And they’re gracious and kind, but there’s also a side to you that’s like, “This is my time with my dad. Why are you taking that up?” I remember having resentment sometimes for that.

David:     Anyway, as I look back at my life, I would say there was a very long section that would go decades before I came to the place where I said, “This needs to be confronted.” And I didn’t have a concept of the pain that would be involved in doing that. And learning to be less than what in my mind was, as good as I could do. And at the same time making up for the lost years with mom, with you kids, and with the Lord. I am not workaholic now. And I am enjoying my time with the Lord. I spend more time in scripture. I spend more time praying. And those are not busy work to me. Those are relational sense that I have with the Lord and saying thank you. Thank you for putting me through a situation where I had to say, “Okay. That will no longer be a part of my life if I’m going to be who I think God wants me to be.” There’s a lot of things that are nice, humanly speaking, but are not necessarily what God has in mind for you. So, I would say those are my testimony of change. You see testimony of change, as far as your dad is concerned. You’re not like I used to be… or am I still, you know, I don’t carry a briefcase anymore

Joel:       Yeah, no. You were constantly with your briefcase. The briefcase was one thing. It was the mental not being present which was very hard. I think this started we had a family gathering at one point, right?

I want to get your answer, but I kind of want to maybe build up some of this. We had a family gathering once because mom was kind of getting on you about “This is a problem.” You know, I think it is like that. Whatever addiction it is where somebody finally says to you, “You have a problem here.” And then that person says, “No, I don’t. I’m totally in control.”

David:     I said those words.

Joel:       So, then we had a family gathering which was a typical thing for the Mainses is when we had an issue of some sort. We would kind of gather and talk it through which was healthy. But then, this was “Is dad’s workaholic?” I don’t know if we used that term.

David:     Yeah, you did

Joel:       Okay. I did.

David:     Well, all of you I remember.

Joel:       So, what was your memory on that?

David:     My memory is: it was actually during a 50-day spiritual adventure, and we were to attack one self-destructive pattern in our lives. And I had chosen, I won’t even say what it shows.

Joel:       Something pretty petty compared to workaholism.

David:     Yeah, and then Karen said, “That’s not your problem. Your problem is your workaholic. And I said, “I’m not workaholic.” And I went to Randall. “Randall, am I a workaholic?” And Randall said, “Yes you are.” And we went right around the table. Well after Melissa, your turn. And then Jeremy and everybody in the family say “Yes, of course you are.” And that was not used in a gentle way.

Joel:       No, there was pain there.

David:     Yeah. I was mad. I don’t think I left the table.

Joel:       No, I think you felt ganged up on. Yeah, which is what most people in an intervention feel.

David:     Well, it was Dad against the rest of the family

Joel:       We had not rehearsed that though.

David:     No.

Joel:       I think that was just everybody saying, “No, no, no.”

David:     And I had to had to take it to the Lord. And either you guys were being unfair or maybe I was being blind. And then it was a real battle royal because you have your hands gripped on that thing and when someone starts peeling away the fingers.

Joel:       Well, the trains still moving.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       You can’t just say, “Okay, we’re not going to do a broadcast for…”

David:     And tears. Tears on your part, tears on my part.

Joel:       Yeah, for sure.

David:     Yeah, I’d like to do that program over again. It wasn’t good, you know. And then you say, “Leave it alone. There’ll be another one tomorrow.” And then that had to be making up time with you guys.

Joel:       Right.

David:     I don’t think that other people see it as that big a deal. But one of the things that you and I do now, and we fight to do it.

Joel:       Well, we work to do it. Make effort to do it.

David:     Fight the schedule.

Joel:       Yes.

David:     You and I have said, “Okay.” What would we enjoy and we we’re trying to get to all of the baseball parks in the country.

Joel:       Right.

David:     Which gives us time to be together in the car driving there and so on. And last year was most unfortunate because we didn’t get to one baseball.

Joel:       No, we didn’t. We’re rained out a couple and just schedules didn’t work. So, we have one coming up and hopefully we’ll get in two or three this year.

David:     That would be wonderful. And maybe even before I’m gone, we’ll have nailed most of the ballpark.

Joel:       Yeah. I don’t know if we get them all before you don’t want to mess with the parks anymore. But yes, okay. That’s something on the tail end of growth. I think you and I, you know, as parents listen or try to think through their own relationship with their kids, and some of those can be very rocky, of course. I’ll sing you praises here a little bit dad because when I hit college, I ended up with some deep pain because of all that time by myself. And, you know, that’s neglect too. It also messes up your kind of your concept of God because then it’s like well, does God really care about the little things in my life? I thought you know; you feel like you can only bring big things to God. So, you have to wrestle with all your father image. How do you transpose that upon to God, right?

So, if your father’s abusive then it’s easy to think of God that way. These are kind of basic thoughts and I’m sure people are very familiar with this. But me with you, I remember starting to go through some healing and I didn’t have memories. I just had pain. And it was very hard for me at first because I was like, why do I have this huge pain for my dad who I know loves me? And then trying to work through that I realized yeah, well neglect is a tough one because you don’t have the memory of dad shouting at me. Or saying something like your mom said to you. “How come you let that person beat you” in school?

So, I didn’t always know how to articulate it. So, it just came out raw. And then you and I had some, I guess you would say, battle royales of just emotion. And you’re hearing emotion for me that was never expressed because I didn’t express it. And I thought that you know must have been very painful for you.

David:     Oh, I heavens yes.

Joel:       But also, you handled it. I mean not at first. I think at first, you’re very defensive. But then after a while you very wisely and graciously listened to my pain. I hear you. I hear you. I’ve heard you. I’ve hurt you. And that was a big turning point for us, you know. I can sit here and talk about this now with almost no residual pain for that. I can think about it like, “Oh, yes, that was a hard time” but there’s nothing in me. That’s all forgiven. It’s all cleared up. So, I think you did very well with that on the tail end as hard as that was.

David:     Yeah, I thank you for, you know, expressing it that way. There was a great error on my part. Great immaturity on my part. And I look back and I say, “Well, I know today. I know today that Karen’s got things that she would like me to do including painting some of the furniture that’s old and then doing some work in the garden.” I wouldn’t even consider doing those things. You know x number of years…

Joel:       Right?

David:     But now I do that. Why do I do that? Because I enjoy gardening? Not necessarily, but I enjoy my wife. And I want to show her that I love her and that’s one of the ways I can do that. But you know, you grow, and you learn, and you go back. I would say that I am a recovering workaholic. And I think that’s a fair statement as to who I see myself at this point. And I have a way to go but I’ll do better. Come back if I’m still alive to see I’m better.

Joel:       I believe that. I would say, you are recovering too. Do you feel though how it manifests in your life has certainly changed. Do you think that core part of you though that is still looking for your mom’s approval? Or is that healed, do you think? Or are you working around it? You’re basically building the discipline? Those are tough.

David:     I think that I’m aware of the process that is going on in my life and I’m grateful for it. And I’m able to look back even in terms of my parents and talk with them in a sense and say, “Thank you for who you were. You were very good parents considering your background and considering your desire to be good parents to your children. Thank you very much. You were a huge influence on my life. Much more so, I was able to give you credit for the earlier years.”

Joel:       So, I can you sound like you could look at that with gratitude.

David:     Yes.

Joel:       As opposed to a resentment of their failures.

David:     Yeah.

Joel:       Which I think is part of maturity for all of us, right?

David:     Yeah, we’re all very fragile people, aren’t we?

Joel:       Yeah, I think we are. Yeah. We all have our issues we’re dealing with. One of the things I respect about you is the openness to talk about these. I’ve seen you talk about this with people, church people or whatever. And they do tend to brush this off. They’ll be “Oh, yes, workaholism. Of course, you know, but you want to be doing work, right?” Or they’ll say lots of comments that are deflective of the pain of it. And you always say, “No, no there is there is pain here.” So, you acknowledge what that is to put work before family; to put work before God. You can easily do God’s work “God’s work” and not have God involved in that.

I mean we’ve also ministers and churches and things that fall into that trap. It just becomes busy, busy work. I’ve worked that, I’ve worked in a lot of places where it’s just a paycheck for some people. They’ve lost sight of the fact that why they’re doing what they’re doing. I admire you, dad, in the sense of tackling this massive, massive thing. What’s encouraging is I see in you a pleasure in not working. You know, there’s a difference between not just doing the work but also a pleasure in the gardening with mom. Or you and I going to the ballpark; the baseball parks. And that’s a big shift. And that’s where to me… I say, “Yes, this is healing. This is healed.” Maybe not perfectly. Maybe not every layer of the onion but something that you’ve taken on and you brought before the Lord. And you’ve made massive, massive gains. And so I know this is something you are kind of embarrassed about, but I do want you to hear as your son that I appreciate immensely that work you go down.

David:     Thank you. Thank you. We didn’t resolve everything. So, we had a healthy discussion. I love you.

Joel:       You too, dad. I love you too.

Outro:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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