Joel:           This is Joel Mains and I’m sitting here with my father, David Mains. How are you today, dad?

David:        I’m alright, Joel. Thank you.

Joel:           And we’ve been going through things that were influential in your life, kind of doing a retrospective on some of that. And then we had an event happen not that long ago that was quite momentous. And that was the passing of K.P. Yohannan, who we’re going to be talking more about today. And we have the opportunity to go back into some of the Chapel of the Air archives. Some of the radio programs that many people know you from. And you had done interviews with K.P.

Today we’re going to be listening to those but also talking about the impact that somebody’s life has on you and the ministry and the kingdom. And I’m looking forward to taking the time to talk to you about that.

David:        Me too.

Intro:         Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his son, Joel Mains. Here’s David and Joel Mains.

Joel:           Dad let’s set a little groundwork here so that people who maybe aren’t as familiar with K.P., might know a little bit of who he is. And why he should be somebody that they know.

David:        Well, I met him when he was a young man with a vision. He came through the Chicagoland area, called on different people, didn’t have an appointment with me. He actually found our son, Randall, your brother, who was a college student at that time.

Joel:           I think he was trimming the bushes or something.

David:        Yeah. So, he wanted to know who was in charge and Randall said, “Well, I’ll take you to him.” He came in and, “Dad, I got somebody who wants to meet you.”

That was the start of a long-time friendship. And it’s still hard for me to think of K.P. being gone, at least from this earth. It’s a tremendous influence he was on my life and on the world.

Joel:           Right. And we’re going to play some of that broadcast soon. He started very humbly. Didn’t wear shoes until…

David:        Yeah, he was a barefoot boy.

Joel:           Barefoot growing up. Yeah.

David:        Raised in southern India, very southern state of Kerala. Most Christian of all the states in terms of the big country of India.

Joel:           Right. And traditionally, that’s where Thomas, doubting Thomas, the apostle, actually went with his missions. And if you ever get a chance to visit there and you meet Christians down there, half of the men you meet are going to be called Thomas.

David:        It’s really true.

Joel:           But K.P., I think was very influential on the whole idea of missions because he was very…

David:        It was in his blood.

Joel:           Right. We all are familiar with traditional Western missions where we were raising money for somebody. We’re sending the churches, supporting somebody, and they’re going over to whatever that country is in Africa or somewhere that’s part of many other churches. And he was really one of the first people to say, “We could do this so much more cheaply if we would use people from the country that they’re from. They don’t have to learn the language. They can live very meagerly.” And of course, he could support native missionaries, was the term he used, for fraction of the money.

David:        Revolutionary.

Joel:           Yeah. It was revolutionary. And it kind of shook things up a little bit because you had a paradigm. Of course, now 30 years later, that paradigm has shifted. We kind of, are in an anti-colonialism kind of movement in the world. And so, using the native missionaries was a way to kind of say, people who are in that culture can do this maybe better, which is nothing against a traditional model at all.

David:        No, but these people know the languages.

Joel:           Right.

David:        They know the languages. They’re in these villages. They’re new converts. They’re filled with fire, the Holy Spirit, and so on. It was a massive shift. His book was received by a lot of people and really vilified by a lot of people as well.

Joel:           Right. Revolution and World Missions is the book. Yeah. And I’ve met numbers of people, five, ten people over my life who said, “Oh, that book changed me fundamentally in how I thought of the world.”

And I would say your relationship with KP Yohannan, was something that changed you as far as you are thinking through. Because you were very focused in America and revival. But this was the kingdom at large. And that was very important for you.

David:        I never met anyone like him. He was totally different to me. Challenged me tremendously, went out of his way to take me to India to see what he was talking about. And when we say India, the tapes that will play from him on broadcast, he was still talking India. But then he began to expand in all different parts of Asia and phenomenal, phenomenal work.

This time he came through and then he would say, “I’m in the area. Can I do some broadcasts with you?” And there was no reason to do it in terms of a project that he had in mind, but these were recorded in 1990, 34 years ago. And again, he was full of vision and just wanted a friend he could share those thoughts with. And the Lord, in a beautiful way, honored me to begin to know him and to travel with him and to see the impact of his life. So, if you and I can just sit back, we’ll listen to one of those broadcasts. Take a break and hear a second one, okay?

Joel:           Very good.

David:        In elections held a year ago this month, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, lost power in India after five years in office. And how has that change in national leadership affected the church in that land of almost 900 million people? In a moment, I’ll ask that question of my good friend, Dr. K.P. Yohannan of Gospel for Asia. He’s a native of India. As this month, we continue looking at the church around the world. David Mains welcomes you to join us here in the Chapel of the Air.

K.P. Yohanan is President of Gospel for Asia. He’s the author of several books popular here in the States, “The Coming Revolution in World Missions.” You ought to read that, and “The Road to Reality.”

Now I know the church in India experienced a time of rapid growth under Rajiv Gandhi’s era. Has that changed with the change of leadership in the government?

K.P.:           Well, David, the people that are coming to the Lord only increased. Of course, the change the government did have an effect on the whole church. I would say this, because Rajiv Gandhi was a little more open to Christianity and his wife is Catholic. But the new government seems to be more dogmatic about Hinduism. You know, some of them are saying publicly, India is a Hindu nation. Christians either go to Italy or Rome or America or whatever else. That has created some difficulties. Yet, I think through all this, the body of Christ are waking up and praying and moving forward.

David:        So, it hasn’t stopped the growth of the church at all?

K.P.:           Absolutely not.

David:        Now I’m not wanting to talk politics, obviously, but sometimes it helps to put a discussion in the framework of what people read in the newspaper. Let’s talk about this growth of the church that is still continuing in your land. Much of that has to come through brand new evangelism. What are tools your workers are finding effective as far as evangelism is concerned?

K.P.:           David, in Gospel for Asia, we work with close to 5,000 native missionaries there in the subcontinent.

David:        So, these are Indian brothers or sisters who are working in your land? Ok.

K.P.:           Right. And majority of the people of India live in the rural villages where they speak so many different languages. And these are people mostly illiterates. And we found, a year and a half ago, a tremendous tool to reach these people using the life of Jesus film. Every month, no less than 25,000 people are coming to Christ in these unreached villages.

Of course, many of the tools we have, but this seems to be one of the strongest we have now.

David:        Now there’s a famous film about the life of Christ. Is that what’s being shown?

K.P.:           Yes. Several years ago, a famous movie producer in India had a dream. Jesus came to him in the night and said, “You must produce a movie on my life.”

David:        A Christian man?

K.P.:           No, he’s a Hindu. And he didn’t want to do with it. So, he went to the next city, to the Catholic Bishop.

David:        This isn’t the Christ film that often is shown in different places around the world. I think Campus Crusade had a part in it.

K.P.:           This is an entirely different movie.

David:        Ok. It’s a different film produced in India.

K.P.:           This is produced for secular movie theaters. As this film was shown, of course you know, the bishop and others helped this man with the scripting of the movie. As people went to see, there’s Hindus and Muslims and other people, when they see Jesus Christ being crucified, they break out weeping out loud in the theaters. When they see him resurrected, they clap their hands and whistling and so happy. This is how we discovered that, my goodness, if you could get this film and give it in the hands of our brothers to show it in the villages where people don’t have the chance to go to the theaters. It’s incredible.

David:        Just a couple of questions. Is this made with Indian actors?

K.P.:           Yes, all of them. All Indian cast.

David:        That’s wonderful. And is it true to the scriptures?

K.P.:           It’s very accurate to the scripture.

David:        He made a beautiful tool for the Lord to use. How long does it take to see the film?

K.P.:           It is a three-hour long movie.

David:        Okay.

K.P.:           And our brothers would show it about half of the film. Then they stop it and talk for half hour about repentance and following Jesus. Then they show the rest of the movie. And finally, they tell them, “Are you willing to give up everything else? Now follow this Jesus.”

David:        Wonderful.

K.P.:           One of the greatest messages, David, a Hindu can hear is that “Jesus died for me. My sins are forgiven. I don’t have to give sacrifices. All I need to do is to believe it.” And people by thousands with tears are receiving this message now.

David:        Now do you have one copy of the film that you’re showing in a village after village, is that what you’re doing?

K.P.:           No, we have 135 copies of that film floating all over the country now.

David:        How did you get so many? There must have cost you a fortune to have many films.

K.P.:           Well, I tell you an interesting story. A year ago, we were praying, “Lord, give us this tool. We need to get it out.” And a man called me up and said, “Brother K.P., I’m 60 years old. I’m getting older. Tell me, how may I invest my life to win millions to Jesus from all these countries? I want to meet them around the throne when I get there.” I said, “John, there’s a project we are praying about.” He said, “How much will it cost?” I said, “No less than quarter of a million dollars.”

A week later that man sent $250,000 check.

David:        Oh, it’s American?

K.P.:           It’s American.

David:        Oh, how wonderful.

K.P.:           And you know the amazing thing is though, you know, every time now I think about it, I say, “What a privilege the Lord gave him. And he took hold of it. That one day when he stands before the throne, he will not be alone there, but multitudes from all these tribals and areas and language people who found their way to heaven because he cared and prayed and gave his life for eternity to win these people for Jesus.”

David:        My mind is rejoicing. It’s also racing because I’m thinking you not only have to have the films, but you also have to have projectors. Does that pay for the projectors?

K.P.:           Yes.

David:        On top of that, you have to have the national workers to go out and show these films. How often are they shown?

K.P.:           Well, minimum three times a week each film is shown. That is about 15,000 people get to see this movie every week. And he multiplied those 135 times. And we are now thinking about getting at least 50 more.

David:        Oh, my goodness. That’s wonderful. Now, when you talk of all these numbers of people, a film like that, I can picture because I’ve been with you a number of times in India, just thousands and thousands of people coming to see it. And this is being shown for the most part in the village areas.

K.P.:           Yes, exactly. Well, the amazing thing is when these people come to Christ, we just don’t leave them alone like that. But our brothers are there to follow up and see them baptized and a local church established.

I mean, for us, the most exciting thing is that we are seeing hundreds of churches established in the villages now as a result of teams going with this film.

David:        Tell me what you mean when you say a church established.

K.P.:           For the organization, we came up with the decision that no less than 30 people, adults, who came to the Lord and baptized publicly, and we count that as a church or more than that.

David:        Okay, tell me about one such church.

David:        Well, I tell you, two and a half weeks ago, as I was getting ready to board the flight to the United States, one of our leaders from Delhi called me up and said, “Oh, Brother KP, could you please come with me to West Bengal?” I said, “Brother Emil, what is going on?”

“Well, Brother KP, if only you could come with me. Last month, our team went and showed the film and witnessed in this particular village. Four hundred fifty people gave their life to Christ. And next Sunday, they’re going to be baptized and I’m going there. If you could go with me, it’ll be a tremendous thing.”

David:        Were you able to go?

K.P.:           No, I had this meeting in California, so I had to come back.

David:        Oh, my, what a thrilling thing. So, this is a new church established and then a pastor comes in or what?

K.P.:           Well, usually two brothers will stay there to follow up. And in a matter of several months, they’re taught and of course one will stay on to continue, feed the people and train them up and disciple them. And now they can reach the neighboring villages from that main village.

David:        Oh, that’s beautiful. KP, I know you’re going to be with me tomorrow in the following day. So, I have a lot of questions on that, but just for the sake of time, this month, I’m wanting to give our chapel listeners a view of what God’s doing through His church in India. But at the same time, I want that interest sustained. So, I’m wondering if some way I could get people not just to be encouraged and say, “Praise the Lord,” but get them to continue with what’s happening in a country like India.

K.P.:           David, one of the best tools we have to keep individuals and families really interested in what the Lord is doing is this little devotional guide, 54 pages long, that we give to people free for their asking.

David:        What’s it called?

K.P.:           One Month for Asia.

David:        Okay, would you give it to our listeners if they’re interested?

K.P.:           Yes,

David:        Free?

K.P.:           Free, absolutely. And all they need to do is just let us know they need it and we’ll send them.

David:        Let me hear again now. One, oh, you got one. Good. Okay. Okay, good enough. One Month for Asia. And what do you mean by a devotional guide?

David:        Every day there is a page or story and a scripture portion, which is really thrilling stories, accounts what is happening on the field. They can read it as a family. Then at the end of this prayer, they pray together. We have hundreds of families who wrote in and said this really changed the entire family as they read through this whole thing for the whole month.

David:        Okay, I see what it is. This is well done. So, there are pictures, but then for each day there’s a story about India plus a prayer request at the end. And these are available. How many pages?

K.P.:           There are 54 pages.

David:        Okay, so it’s a substantial book, paperback book. But you’re welcome to write for this and just continue to understand more of what God is doing there in India. Thank you very much for making these available.

And again, this is called friend, One Month for Asia. KP, I’m glad you’re going to be with me for a couple of days. We can talk longer. I have a huge question for you.

What’s the Lord saying to your heart regarding these days in which we’re living?

K.P.:           David, the one strong thought I have in my heart daily now is that we are living on borrowed time. Time is very, very short and we must move as fast as we can with all our heart. Both living for the Lord and doing everything to win our generation.

David:        Yeah, I’m with you. This is the time I’ll live decidedly, Christian. Feel it deep, deep inside.

Joel:           That’s really fun to be able to listen to the broadcasts, on some of the archives, and pull that out. When you think about the impact, when he’s talking numbers and what Gospel for Asia actually grew into is fulfilling those wishes of him, that’s pretty amazing.

David:        Yeah, you could never say this is what he’s about. He was about so many things.

Joel:           Right.

David:        He had huge ministry among the Dalits, especially among the younger children.

Joel:           Right. Well, and we should probably explain that in India, it’s a democracy, but they do have a class system. You have the Brahmins and I don’t even know all the different Dalits.

David:        The Dalits are the lowest of the low. They’re the ones who do the filthy work.

Joel:           Right. And they were literally called the untouchables, which is just a horrible, horrible name. And he was very influential in saying, “No, Christ came for everybody and would give ministry to them.”

David:        Did you get a chance to see the massive hospital complex he put together?

Joel:           I’ve been to India twice. And once I went with you when I was much younger, and that was quite a change for me. India is kind of an interesting country. You could call it a third world country, but it’s incredibly technologically advanced in other ways. So, it’s this mix. And of course, the last time I was there, 15 years ago, so who knows how much it’s changed since then. But when I went there, he was primarily doing the Bible colleges. So, he started many seminaries over there. And then also started later doing the hospitals. If people are going to die, we can very well tell them about the gospel if they’re in pain or something.

David:        Yeah, we’ll go back and listen again to one of those 1990 broadcasts. But it’s very hard for me to get used to the idea of the three weeks that he’s been dead now. It just again, I carry his words and his thoughts with me all the time. Yeah, it’s hard for me to listen to it without crying.

Joel:           Yeah, well, and I think if people kind of think, well, why are we talking about this person so much? Well, this is very central to who you are. The kingdom is much more than just what’s going on in America or my town or my church. It’s this whole world mindset. And the influence that KP Yohannan has had on India, primarily, but Asia in general, in the broader sense, is way bigger than people in the United States could even understand. So, you’re talking about somebody who in another country is massive in his influence in the kingdom sense. You’re talking thousands and thousands, probably millions.

David:        And these are world leaders who have sent their regard and their appreciation for who he was and what he did. They’re not even necessarily Christian people. They were talking to government leaders and so on.

Joel:           Right. Well, and of course, Gospel for Asia has done projects with putting in wells. I think they put in more freshwater wells than any other ministry. It’s like one part of what they do. So that’s not like the first thing they’re known for. But I do want to take some time where we can kind of listen back. And hopefully as people listen, they too are reminded that the world is the Lord’s world. And this is something to keep in mind. And we’re not just American focused. And unless we listen to people like this, we’re not going to have that mindset.

David:        Well said.

Church and building kind of go together in the minds of most North Americans. In the emerging world, because a lot of times congregations don’t have a building, maybe they meet in an open field or under a thatched shelter, the church has identified more as a body of people. This is certainly true in many places I visited in India. That land of 900 million souls is again our focus this visit in the Chapel of the Air.

David Mains, greeting you friend. This month we’re looking at Christ’s church all around the world. And one final time it’s our privilege to have as a guest here in the chapel, Dr. K.P. Yohannan, president of Gospel for Asia.

Now I don’t want to give a wrong impression, K.P., because there are many church buildings in India, aren’t there?

K.P.:           Plenty, especially in South India. You will find large church buildings of all kinds.

David:        Some of them are very old.

K.P.:           Yes, of course, you know, remember the first century, AD52, Thomas, Jesus’s disciples, came and preached the Gospel.

David:        So, the church in India is very, very old and the strength of the church is in South India.

K.P.:           Yeah.

David:        Now, if we talk North India, which is where the evangelism has to take place, that’s mostly strongly Hindu and Muslim. Is that fair?

K.P.:           Exactly. Well, one of the surprised experiences I had as a 16-year-old when I went to North India was that I went to places for months, continually traveling. People never heard the name Jesus. Villages never could find a church, didn’t find a Christian. And even today that remains true for hundreds or thousands of villages. But it’s changing.

David:        It’s changing because the church is moving forward. Talk about just one village where maybe something special has happened, okay?

K.P.:           Well, so many stories I can tell you. One, I remember 1966, David, when I went to Boondi, Rajasthan.

David:        Rajasthan is one of the states in the Northwest. It’s very arid. It’s one of the tougher areas of India. And you were just a young kid, really, going up in that area under Operation Mobilization?

K.P.:           Right. And a team of us went to this place and before we knew it, we were beaten up real bad. Our books and bibles and tracks are burned. And before I knew it, I was laying in the dust and this guy was kicking me around.

And we left the place. Just about three years ago, a young brother, about 20 years old, Alex, went to this place to live there to witness with the goal to establish a local church. Of course, Gospel of Asia, you know, supported him for him to do the job. Well, today he has over 200 believers more baptized. And I was there a few months ago to inaugurate the first church building in the entire community.

David:        That’s wonderful.

K.P.:           And the amazing thing, David, is that there are hundreds of villages like that. One time there was nothing, but now living church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

David:        Give me a feel of a village. I want to go there, maybe in a very recent story and just see what the national missionary would find and what might happen.

K.P.:           Well, you are going on the tarmac, which is the black top road. And all of a sudden you see way out there, two, three kilometers, some little huts, mostly made of mud. Of course, you get off on the bus and then usually walk or a bullock cart or whatever you get in this place. And you’ll find maybe about 500 or a thousand people or sometimes 5000 people living in this village, mostly or made little mud houses or sometimes brick.

David:        And a lot of buffalo around.

K.P.:           Yes, a lot of buffaloes and people are farmers, and they have the turbines and little children walking around naked, you know. And of course, there’ll be a school there. And it is really primitive, even today.

David:        Yeah. And most of India is that way. But now the man comes in with a message of Jesus Christ and what happens?

K.P.:           Well, usually our brothers go two by two, and they’ve tried to find at least a room, you know. They can rent for $5 on like that and live with the literature tracks and everything. Well, actually interesting story that explains this whole situation.

Just a few months ago in Punjab, in one of these villages.

David:        This is way north again now.

K.P.:           Again, they went there, and they start witnessing about the Lord and sharing about Christ dying on the cross and all these different things. So, they went to this man and tried to witness to him and he said, “Well, all I have is my buffalo and my buffalo is sick and is dying.” And well, you know, this man makes his living by milking his buffaloes and taking the milk to a tea shop and all that. And he said, “Would you pray to your God for my buffalo?” Our brothers said, “Sure.” And he laid his hand on the sick buffalo and prayed, “Jesus, please heal this buffalo so that he would know.”

David:        Something I’ve never had to do before. And buffalo is a big animal. That takes a lot of healing, a lot of faith to pray that way.

K.P.:           And David, the Lord healed the buffalo. The story is that man sat up and listened to the gospel. His wife gave her life to the Lord. His family gave their life to the Lord, and his relatives. Now, there is a church with over 45 people worshiping Jesus because all the sudden they saw the living Lord Jesus Christ.

See, in these villages, David, they have millions of gods and goddesses. It is not a clash of philosophy or theory or some history. It is a clash between powers.

David:        Spiritual powers.

K.P.:           Spiritual powers. And when they see Jesus Christ loving Savior who heals, who delivers, who forgives, it is so totally unlike the demons and the gods they worship. They had to be so scared of appeasing their gods to all kinds of offerings. So, this happened so easily, especially among the tribals and the villagers.

David:        That’s fascinating. What is your goal as far as reaching villages?

K.P.:           Oh, David, 500,000 villages is my dream. A church in all these villages. But this year, our leadership, our goal is to see at least 1000 missionaries going to 1000 such unreached places to establish local churches in all these places.

David:        Of course, once you establish a church, it radiates out too, doesn’t it so?

K.P.:           Exactly.

David:        The circle just gets bigger all the time.

K.P.:           Exactly.

David:        And so, the story, really what’s happening in India is a marvelous story. I like to give it exposure on the broadcast because, again, American, Canadian missionaries are kept out of India for the most part. So, it’s a native story, a national story. And I like to give you exposure because you always excite me when you talk about it. You put together a one-month devotional regarding Asia. You’ve made these available to your supporters. It’s just to keep them interested in what’s happening in their stories, day by day for a month regarding Asia. Most of this is with India, but your ministry is for Asia, so it’s bigger. But this is a 54-page booklet, One Month for Asia, a devotional guide by K.P. Yohannan. And he’s making it available free to all of you as listeners just to keep you interested in what is going on in lands like India, which are marvelous stories.

A lot of sacrifices are involved with those stories too, right? What can your national workers teach us here in this country?

K.P.:           Well, more than anything else, I believe what motivates our brothers and sisters on the mission field is they face a lot of suffering, a lot of opposition, and they sacrifice a lot, but they anticipate the coming of the Lord. And they say, “This is so near, time is so short.” I think here in this culture, in North America, we are so now oriented. It is our convenience, our happiness, and our spiritual benefit, and all these things. Somehow, if only we can see eternity.

You know, when Abraham left everything, he had, he walked away. The Bible says he looked for a city that has foundation, the builder and maker is God. It’s fascinating. Now, archaeologist has to go and dig and dig and dig to find out if there was ever a place called Ur of the Chaldeans, but they found it to be true. But at that time, Abraham never thought, man, one of these days, this whole place going to be messed up and destroyed under the ocean of Sumerians. He saw something more valuable. And a challenge to our brothers and sisters here in this culture, look away from this present tense, this materialism, and shake it off and look for something bigger and greater. And this is the thing that our brothers are convinced of and keeps them moving on to do the work of God and live for Jesus.

David:        I catch that whenever I go over to India and KP, I believe in a core group. I’m beginning to catch that here in the states and provinces as well. We have a long way to go. The culture mitigates against it. It’s hard to have eternity stamped on your eyes when there’s so much happening. And it’s such a busy, busy place in which we live. But I think that day may be changing. I trust it is so. If so, we’ve learned lessons from you. I say, thank the Lord, but keep being who you are and keep encouraging your people over there. We’re thrilled by what God is doing in his church in India.

KP Yohannan, do something different as we close this broadcast. Will you pray for believers here in America? I would appreciate that. And then we’ll close out the program. All right?

K.P.:           Sure.

Father, we want to thank you so much for this privilege you have given us to know you. Our sins are washed away. We are made clean. But, Lord, we think about over two billion people that never ever heard that Jesus died for them. I pray Father that you’ll please help us to experience the emotions and feelings of our Lord Jesus Christ, that our hearts will break with the things that breaks your heart. And Jesus, I pray that you please help us. Help the body of Christ here to shake themselves out of this apathy and lukewarmness and be willing to lay down their life and move forward with a commitment to live for you with all their heart until everyone in our generation say Jesus is Lord. Help us to live in the light of eternity. Thank you, Father, that you’re doing it in the lives of people even now.

David:        Amen.

K.P.:           In Jesus’ name. Amen.

David:        I remember KP oftentimes saying “Lord, stamp eternity on my eyes.”

Joel:           Yeah.

David:        And that just came out of him. It was always private conversation, public meetings, whatever. That’s who he was.

Joel:           An eternal perspective, I think I would say too. It was a person who, when you met him, your conversation could be very inspiring as far as looking at your own life and saying, “Okay, well, what am I doing with my time, my money, my resources, what God has given me.” And here’s somebody saying a lot of these things you care about really don’t…

In 100 years, we’re all asked, we’ve gone, right? So, what are you leaving behind in that time? And he was amazing in that way.

David:        Let me just say a word to people regarding Karen. Karen has been writing. She has thanked me numerous times for getting her out of too many obligations. That maybe that’s not a fair word. She enjoys doing them, but she’s just got too much on her plate. She had a good week of writing. And you helped her, Joel. She has things spread out all over the dining room in the living room table and she’s saying, “I’m getting this in my head and it’s coming along” every time I ask her. So, thank you and thank you for praying for her. Her writing is in a book.

Joel:           And she’s talking about listening, the power of listening and how transformative it is. I think it’s a timely book because we’re fragmenting in this culture where we’re not listening for telling other people. This is what you meant. And they’re not asking what you meant. And I think that’s important, but she’s quite excited about it.

David:        Yeah, and she’s into it now. It’s not the overwhelming task of what she has to do. She’s more into this is going to be good. She’ll ask me to read something, and I’ll say, yeah, that’s very good.

So, I miss her in terms of the podcast.

Joel:           Yeah, so she will be back when that’s done. You’ll get to hear her voice. Maybe we’ll pull her in here in the middle just so people don’t get too tired of me. But anyway, for now.

David:        I was thinking next time you have the podcast with Karen, and I get a chance to talk.

Joel:           Well, that may happen too. We’ll play it. However, I can help.

David:        Thanks, man.

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