Joel:           This is Joel Mains. Welcome today. We’re on the Before We Go podcast. I’m with my father. Dad, how are you doing today?

David:        I’m doing all right so far.

Joel:           Okay, good. About the name of this podcast Before We Go, what was your idea on that?

David:        Well, obviously, Karen and I were both aging. It was an opportunity to say some things that we probably wouldn’t unless an actual time to record came and we had gone over some what our thoughts were.

Joel:           But before you go…

David:        that means…

Joel:           …before you pass

David:        …before we pass, Yeah.

Joel:           All the euphemisms, we have for dying, which is a topic people avoid often talking about because it’s unpleasant. And that’s exactly why we’re going to talk about it today. So, you and I are going to have a chat about death and as you get closer to it, you’re thinking on that and of course some insight into that topic. Sound good?

David:        Sounds good. Yes.

Intro:         Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his son, Joel Mains. Here’s David and Joel Mains.

Joel:           Well, death is of course something everybody will face. Everybody goes there. When you’re young, of course, it seems like something very far off. And even for me, I’m 55 now, it’s really something that I find my thoughts have started to turn to well. Or what is my older age going to be like and how do I want to build a healthy older age? Now, as I’m with you, I hear your talk changing quite a bit and it’s front and center. This is a topic that strikes home for you. Is that fair?

David:        It’s fair. I remember my dad saying one of the things that he didn’t like about growing older, he died when he was 91, was that he had to go through so many deaths of his friends, so many funerals. And he found that very hard and he found himself lonely and I would say, “Well, you can get new friends, dad.” And he said, “No, I can’t get new friends that are going to be friends for 40, 50, 60 years.” And I understand what he’s saying now. You don’t have the time left to develop those relationships.

Joel:           And friendships take time, of course.

David:        Yes. And I’m feeling that way. I see people die and I’ve known them. I sometimes just get a report that so and so passed away. Did you know this? And Karen and I will talk, and we’ll say, “We went up to Stratford to the Shakespeare Festival with them, talk with them.” Also, a lot of my friends, people I’ve known, not just acquaintances, but know them well, they’ve gone through really difficult financial problems and diseases, which is even harder because there’s not a finality to it. All these become a part of this aging process and it’s tough.

Joel:           I remember when I was married, we had people pray for different aspects of our life. So, it was young, married life, middle age. And I asked grandpa to pray for our older age. And he was very practical and wonderful. And he would call us fella. Fella? He got older and older and forgot our names. We all became fella. At this point, he was not there. But he said, “Well, fella, what are you looking for from me?” And I said, “Well, you know, just something that we could look forward to an older age.” And he had said, not in a sarcastic or a down way, but he said, “Well, when you get my age, you don’t look forward to a lot. You are kind of just hoping that you kind of stay because things stop working…” and I’d never heard anybody say that. I was just looking for a nice blessing. But that was interesting to me. And I never forgot that because he wasn’t trying to be funny or he was just like, well, your life changes and you’re not thinking forward as much as the past and hanging on.

Do you feel that way as you get older?

David:        Well, of course, mom died before dad did.

Joel:           Right.  She passed from Alzheimer’s.

David:        So, she was gone for quite a while. I was still with a broadcast, and I would stop on the way home always and see her. And at the time I realized the course that dad was going through this very difficult time. Being alone and mom not really being able to communicate like she had. Mom was a very vital person. And I looked back on that, and I think this was really hard on dad. I don’t think I appreciated it how difficult it was, although at a certain point you don’t know. You just try to be of whatever help.

Joel:           Well, I think either you or mom will be a mess when the other goes.

David:        We’ve talked about that. Mama said, “I hope it doesn’t bother you, but I would like to go first. I don’t want to be the one who’s left.” And I said, “Well, I haven’t thought about it that much, but I’d prefer to go first. Or if we could both arrange it, so we go at the same time.”

Joel:           Well, I wouldn’t be surprised about that because you two are so close. But those are not things you think of when you’re in your 20s or your 40s.

David:        No, it’s the last thing in your mind. And if you do think of it, you think, I don’t want to think about this anymore. We’ll just live life as it comes.

Joel:           Now, there are many Christian traditions that people aren’t familiar with. But even in the monastic world or whatever, we’ll talk about keeping your death front and center in the sense of saying, “If you remember that death is always around the corner potentially, it gives you a sense of, wow, my life has a purpose. I need to use what I have now.”

Do you agree with that as you look at life?

David:        I think it could become morbid, but I don’t think that’s what you’re saying.

Joel:           No.

David:        You’re saying as a healthy spiritual practice, it would be wise to realize that you’re not here for an indefinite period of time. You never know. You know, Jeremy, your younger brother, he was 42 when he died of cancer.

Joel:           Very young.

David:        Yeah. And it just, that stays with me all the time. I basically would say that I’m very much in a mindset of thinking about death because of Dr. Yohannan died. One of my really, really close friends.

Joel:           Some kind of a spiritual compatriot. Is that fair?

David:        Yes. In many ways. We didn’t see each other all the time, but when we did see each other, it was very warm. We prayed for each other all this.

Joel:           You two kind of have an understanding of looking at the world, which I think was kind of unique and special.

David:        It’ll be close to a month coming up, and I still am not used to that. I don’t understand how that would happen in God’s thinking because he was such a valuable member of the kingdom. But I don’t try to figure those things out. I just try to say, “Lord, I accept it.”

I pray regularly for his wife, who is still here in the world, and also for his son and daughter, and for the whole Gospel for Asia family. But these are mysteries. Why would that happen? I don’t know.

Joel:           Why do you not question those things? Because I do personally. I mean, I remember a very young person when the Christian recording artist Keith Green died. He was like one of the favorites of mine. I was probably maybe just starting high school. I’m not sure of the date actually, but that was very bothersome to me. Why? I mean, he died in a plane crash with some of his children. Why would God allow that to happen? I mean, someone who has a vital ministry. You think about Jeremy, my brother, your son, the youngest, and then leaving behind three children and a wife. Those are hard for me. I struggle with that. What in the world? God didn’t need Jeremy in heaven. We need him down here. So, I’m surprised maybe I don’t want to let you off the hook here too much because I ask those questions a lot.

David:        I ask the question, but I don’t dwell on it very long because there’s no way to figure the answers out. I just take it and accept it and try to adjust to it.

Joel:           You’re just saying, you’re just putting yourself in the sovereignty of God. God’s in control, and these are beyond me? Let the boss handle this? Is that what you’re saying?

David:        Yeah, I wouldn’t be quite as casual as that. But I would say, “Lord, this is bigger than me, and I’m hurt about it. I cry about it sometimes.” God doesn’t have to answer to me, so I don’t hold him accountable. I don’t think he killed my son. I don’t think he killed my friends. That’s just a part of a fallen world, but I do find that death is kind of an enigma. You don’t know really what to expect.

As I think about death, it relates more to me where I am than what has happened. How do I process everything that is going on and at the same time leave enough of it alone to just say this is bigger than me? But it’s not easy. I find that it’s difficult.

It’s also wonderful because I know this August I’ll be 88 and you keep getting older and you keep diminishing in a lot of ways. Your memory right now, my memory is not nearly what it once was. Usually, I can eventually figure it out what was in there, but it takes a while.

Joel:           Takes a while for the circuits to connect.

David:        Yes, that’s frustrating to me, but that’s all a part of life. I find that it’s not so much trying to figure those things out as saying, how do I make sure that it’s the easiest possible transfer from myself to God’s presence for the people who are still left here on earth?

So, I want to make sure that I don’t make it more difficult than it needs to be for them.

Joel:           For the people who stay behind you mean?

David:        Yes.

Joel:           Okay. This topic doesn’t really get talked about a lot in churches I grew up in and churches I’ve visited as an adult. I can’t think I’ve heard a sermon about someday you’re going to die other than maybe in the immediate sense make a decision right now and maybe just an altar call or something. Is this something you’ve ever preached on? I can’t think of it as a topic of yours.

David:        When I was in the pastorate there was a ten-year time. There was only one death in those ten years in the entire span and that was a suicide. And it wasn’t one of the key members of the church. Although it was someone I spent a great deal of time with trying to be helpful. I didn’t preach a sermon at that time. And then once you get into the radio ministry which was next in my life for a long period of time, I probably did messages on death, but it wasn’t something I talked about all that much. When you’re a pastor and it’s a part of the family of the church, it’s pretty close.

Joel:           I think about sometimes God created the world; He created the dynamics. We’re in a fallen place but clearly, He could have said no one’s going to die. You’re all going to be immortal like me, right? That could have been the scenario we had. And then maybe we would have dealt with accidents, and you know people dying. But there is something about having a finite amount of time that you say, “Well I need to reconcile. I need to change this in my life. There’s a ticking clock going on that maybe you would not be so aware of if you didn’t have that. What do you think about that?”

David:        It’s healthy. It’s healthy to think about who you are. All of us are flawed. I don’t care who we are, the idea of standing before your creator and giving an account of your life. That’s a very intimidating thought to put in your mind. I’m very grateful for old age because it’s given me the chance to say I don’t want to take that kind of attitude with me into the next world.

Joel:           Which kind of attitude?

David:        Whatever my flaws are.

Joel:           Okay you want to get better.

David:        Yes, I want to say “Lord to the best of my ability to analyze myself I think I’m not as critical with my tongue as I once was.“

I don’t know any place where before God I haven’t confessed unless it was just a matter of forgetting something or a standard that is much lower than what God says. I am grateful that I have aged, and I still probably have a certain amount of time left because it gives me a chance to get closer to the Lord. I think that I could not take advantage of that. This used that privilege to his mind, but it’s been good in my life as I’ve aged to be able to say, there’s no question I feel much closer to God now than I did when I would say in my 20s or 30s or at your peak years in your 40s and 50s. I find an intimacy with God that I didn’t have before. And then all of a sudden bang, one of your friends dies and then you think, “Oh man, this thing is really huge to me.”

And it reminds you again of your own mortality and you’re at the place where you’re saying, “Walk with me, Lord. Correct me if there are areas where I’m not living the way you want me to” and so on.

There’s also a lot of preparing for death for the people you love. We have our wills in place. You and your older brother have helped us immensely put a lot of things into a smooth transition as can be when your parents are gone. And there are some things that we have to figure out yet. Karen and I have talked about, “Do they embalm us?”

Joel:           What are the end of life decisions?

David:        So, we’re talking through those, and we haven’t resolved everything. But I think on a spiritual basis, I do remember now, you asked me if I ever preached on these things that I’ve preached on Jesus words, which are very meaningful to me. “Don’t let your heart be trouble.” I think it’s John 14. “You believe in God, believe also in me. In my father’s house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you, I would have prepared a place for you. Where I am there, you may be also.”

Those are phenomenal words. I have preached on those. I don’t think I’ve preached on them in any sense of finger pointing, shaking, you know, getting hot and mine.

Joel:           Sure, certainly end of life has been scared a lot of people into the kingdom, so to speak.

David:        Well, it possibly is. I don’t know.

Joel:           I don’t necessarily think that’s the best way, but certainly it’s been done.

David:        Yeah, it probably has been. And maybe the Lord used that message to preach to someone in a way that said, “You’re not going to live for another 20 years,” you know.

Joel:           Right.

David:        Now’s the time to begin to think about eternity.

Joel:           If you live life long enough, life kicks you around a little bit and you, some of us a little more, I’ve gone through some very hard things. It’s easy to hit my point in life. Sometimes when you have to do a reboot of life and to be like, “Oh my goodness, my life is done.”

Now to you, you look at that and say, “You have a lot of life to live. I want to ask you what might be for somebody my age and then somebody who’s more in your age who’s listening, something you might tell them to keep in mind as far as this topic.

David:        Well, I don’t think as much that way as I think about myself personally, but I would say keep in mind that you’re mortal. You have to set priorities in life. Priorities are just a part of learning to be mature in your life. Don’t neglect the spiritual as you are able, and I think all of us are able. Rearrange your life so that God becomes more and more a priority. If possible, the priority, I would say that God has been very kind to me, and he has become the topmost priority in my life. I don’t think that’s unfair to say that.

My life is centered around times of meeting with him and trying to say, “All right, Lord, I’m yours still. And in whatever way I can be helpful in the kingdom, I want to do that.”

Sometimes I think one of the hardest things about aging is that all the opportunities you had when you were younger and especially at your prime, those tend to go away. And you almost have to reinvent yourself in a way so that people say, “Golly, I didn’t know that you were a minister. Here’s somebody you know who’s a new acquaintance and maybe…

Joel:           They haven’t seen you act in your…

David:        Yeah, it’s maybe fifth or sixth time you’ve seen the person. “Oh my God, you were a minister. Did you preach?”

I want to say, “You’re darned tootin’.” But that’s all just the part of the struggle.

Joel:           That’s more of an aging struggle, maybe?

David:        I would say aging and death are very close, aren’t they? The whole aging, the diminishing. I’m not who I once was.

Joel:           Right, and this is coming. I’m closer to that. I know when you say grandpa passed at 92, you say?

David:        91.

Joel:           91. That’s a number that means a lot to you because you’re 87 going 88. So, you feel that. There’s no way you’re gonna know if you’re gonna live less or more exactly the same as grandpa. But for you, that is a milestone that’s pretty profound because it keeps telling you your days are numbered. You’re gonna be standing before the throne soon and keep that in mind.

David:        Yeah, I find that in my life I’m much more comfortable. And then all of a sudden, you’re jarred. You know, KP dies, he’s accidentally walking, and a car hits him from behind. And just in that moment you never ever expected that he was used in the 70s. I’m in my 80s. Oh my goodness, that must be terrible for his children who are all adults now and his grandchildren. And how does that relate to this massive, massive ministry that he’s accumulated over the years. And then he’s an international celebrity. I mean, the government of India recognizing the incredible…

Joel:           Which is amazing too because they’re a Hindu nation.

David:        Yes. Why did that happen? Someone so close. I find myself saying, “Golly, I just wish I could have one more conversation with him.” I can’t do that. It’s not possible.

Joel:           Not the sight of heaven, I guess.

David:        No. All those promises are so incredible. I don’t know how people who have no sense of the supernatural and of Christ as the Son of God coming and showing us how we should live and His great love for us. I don’t know how they deal with life. It’s just very difficult to think. All of a sudden, I’m older now and then I die. And what happens? People are able to shut their minds off, I guess, and just not think about it all that much. It must be very difficult for them. I don’t know. But for me, there’s a sweetness that I find myself saying thank you, thank you, Lord. Thank you very much.

Sometimes though I’m not recognized by other people like I used to be, you recognize me. You know who I am. That’s very nice. I think that even being able to say if it happened all of a sudden, if the same thing happened to me, I think I would say I’m more concerned about the people who are left behind. I’m in pretty good shape. You don’t have to worry about me that much. And that’s not in any way cocky or I really have it all put together. I am as flawed as you can find. Just like everybody. I have problems. I have ego. I have a big mouth and all the things you name. Been there and done that. But that’s not who I am anymore because God has been very gracious to me.

I almost, from the future, I look forward to it. Peter Pan, the children’s story, when he thinks he’s going to die because of Captain Hook. Peter Pan says, “I think death will be a very great adventure.” It’s kind of childish, but it’s also very profound. I feel like I can say the same thing. I think that going into the next world is going to be a very great adventure. Probably beyond anything I never dreamed. We don’t know, but I believe that.

And I believe Jesus said what he’s in his place that he’s preparing and there are many mansions. And they got to be used by somebody. So, we’ll see where all that goes. But it’s a time of reflection and probably those thoughts have been more to say, “Okay, am I sure that I’ve done all this right by the people who are still here with me, that they will be left behind, that I have been to them a helpful person.”

So, just a lot of ruminating, that is going on. I find if there are tears and they’re having, sometimes I say, “Lord, the truth is you’re wonderful. I don’t understand how you can be as patient and kind as to a loaf and sin and man like me.”

That’s the old spiritual. Counting my blessings one by one. I would hope that what I’m going, people would say, “Yeah, I miss him terribly.”

Joel:           I certainly will say that.

David:        Bless you. Bless you. I would hope all my children would say that. I’m just trying to put it all together. Before I go, I would like to probably preach a series of four or five Sundays somewhere.

A friend the other day said, our church is dying. This was in another town. And when you say it’s dying, I’m thinking older people and there may be 30 people left and it’s just a matter of time. He said, “No, we don’t have that many.” I said, “Well, how many people do you have in church?” And she said, “It’s usually three plus myself.” And she said, “Would you come some Sunday and preach?” “Yeah, I’d be more than happy to.”

I think I would rather do that than always sit in the pew. I just like to do it again. I haven’t preached for a long time. I enjoy the podcast with Karen because in a sense I can say, “Okay,” if we weren’t really clear with what we said, here it is to the best we can do as far as a sentence is concerned. Now that’s different than me responding.

Joel:           We’re a little more conversational.

David:        Yeah, responding to your questions is different than me putting a podcast together. But it’s fun. I think I drive Karen crazy because every day I say, “How are you doing on those books?” She at least gives the impression that she’s working out because she’s got papers all over the house now trying to get this done. I miss doing the podcast with her on a regular basis. Thank you very much for filling in.

Joel:           You can get her in here and take a week and just rotate in when you need me.

So, well, anyway, this is a huge topic today. I don’t think anyone can do the definitive end of life, but I’ve appreciated your thoughts. And hopefully as our listeners have listened, they found value in this. We’d love to hear from you if you have any thoughts or topics you would like to hear me discuss with my father. This is a wonderful opportunity for me as dad ages that I can have these conversations with him. So, I find it special.

Clearly, I would like mom to come back for your sake and for the listener’s sake, but I’m honored to be able to sit with you and listen, Dad.

David:        Joel, we had a wonderful, wonderful three-page typed letter from a person who listens regularly to the podcast, talking about my contribution to his life over the period.

Joel:           The meaning of your ministry.

David:        Yeah. I had gone to the post office with Karen. I said there are two letters today, Karen, and there was a very generous check inside. If I were limited to which one I could take, I would say I’d still take the letter because the letter just touched me so beautifully. You never know what your life is meant. And I think especially for older people, sometimes they feel like their life really didn’t count.

Joel:           Did this add up to something? Yeah.

David:        Yeah. So, when you say you get a chance to jot a note or write a letter, it’s very meaningful. Yeah.

Outro:       You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

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