David:     Do you like history? I do. When I go to a bookstore, that’s the section I tend to look for. Can you show me, please, where the history books are?

Karen:     And I also like history, but not as much as my husband. So, in a bookstore, I would probably gravitate to the books on whatever I’m researching at the moment. I spend a lot of time doing a lot of research for writing that I do. And right now, I’m researching the listening process. So that would be what I would look for.

David:     Whether or not people are good listeners and how that affects their lives.

Karen:     Right. And how we can be good listeners.

David:     Because I’m interested. How many books on that topic have you read so far?

Karen:     A good 10 or 15.

David:     That’s fair.

Karen:     I’ve left quite a pile. So, we’re going to ask our listeners the question: What section of books would call to you if you went into a bookstore?

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

Karen:     David, I believe you also like books with the prophetic edge. And I know you are presently reading a book I ordered for you because of this interest. And it’s by Bishop William Barber from North Carolina. The title is called, “Revive Us Again” and revival is also one of your interests.

David:     Yeah, you landed on a wonderful book when you ordered that for me. William Barber is co-chair, I think, of what’s called the Poor People’s Campaign.

Karen:     He’s often interviewed on national media. He’s very powerful and prophetic in what he says, The passion for the poor is the thing that drives the man.”

David:     I read a chapter and then I just have to kind of stop and absorb. It’s incredibly well done.

Karen:     Okay, that’s great. Are you going to talk about history and prophecy in this podcast? I’m guessing.

David:     It’s not a very hard guess, is it? It seems like I talk about that a lot. In fact, what I’d like to do, Karen, is when I’m finished with just my remarks that are prepared in my head, I would like to hear your response to it, if you don’t mind.

Karen:     I’d love to give you my response.

David:     For the most part, I believe ministers today tailor their sermons to the people in their congregations, to their parishioners, and that’s probably how it should be. By way of contrast, the biblical prophets often spoke their words in public places. And their target audience was the nation and its leaders, the kings, and the powerful ministers of state. An example would be the Prophet Jeremiah.

Let me give you a brief background regarding this man’s life and ministry. It began only a few short years after a time of spiritual awakening in Jerusalem. Here are two short paragraphs from 2 Kings 23 about that earlier revival.

“Then Josiah the king called together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. He went up to the temple of the Lord with the men of Judah, the people of Jerusalem, the priests, and the prophets, all the people from the least to the greatest. He read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the temple of the Lord. Then the king stood by the pillar and renewed the Covenant in the presence of the Lord to follow the Lord and keep His commands, regulations, and decrees with all His heart and all His soul.

Then all the people pledged themselves to the Covenant. The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priest next in rank and the doorkeepers, to remove from the temple of the Lord all the articles made for Baal and Ashara and all the starry host. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley. He took the Ashara pool from the temple of the Lord to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes which were in the temple of the Lord.”

Well, that time of revival is the historic background to the prophetic book of Jeremiah. Here’s Jeremiah chapter 1 verses 1 and 2.

“The words of Jeremiah, son of Hilkiah. The word of the Lord came to him in the 13th year of the reign of Josiah.” We just read about Josiah. “And through the reign of Jehoiakim, son of Josiah, down to the fifth month of the 11th year of Zedekiah, also son of Josiah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile.”

So, all told, Jeremiah’s ministry would actually continue through the reign of five Judean kings, ending with the complete destruction of Jerusalem and also the nation in 587 BC by the foreign power of Babylon. During his long and difficult ministry, Jeremiah would forcefully and faithfully speak out regarding matters like the plight of the poor.

Quote, “On your clothes men find the blood of the innocent poor.” Telling lies had become commonplace in the nation as well. Jeremiah said that the people had taught their tongues to lie. They make ready their tongues like a bow to shoot lies. Again, it is not by truth that they triumph in the land they go from one sin to another. More Jeremiah words.

“The nation has become rich and powerful and also grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit. They do not plead the case of the fathers to win it. They do not defend the rights of the poor.”

These were strong words the Lord more or less ordered Jeremiah to speak. It’s apparent the earlier national awakening had ended much too quickly.

“Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,” said Jeremiah on the Lord’s behalf. “Search through the squares if you can find one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth. God says he will forgive the city.”

Quickly, the prophet Jeremiah also warned against putting unwise confidence in their military. And about the nation having the brazen look of a prostitute. And about dressing the wound of my people as though it were not a serious one.

One more illustration. Jeremiah 15 verse 1. “Then the Lord said to me, even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me,” it’s like saying today, even if Billy Graham and Mother Teresa were to stand before me on your behalf, “even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence. They shall ask, where shall we go? This is what the Lord says. Those destined for death to death. Those for the sword to the sword. Those for starvation to starvation. Those for captivity to captivity.”

Well, I have given you a quick feel for Jeremiah. His calling and a sample of the message he was to deliver. Allow me to make one more observation. This was a very difficult assignment. To preach such words as representing “Thus sayeth the Lord,” brought Jeremiah both abuse and great sorrow. His words are, “God has made my skin and my flesh to grow old and has broken my bones. He has besieged me and surrounded me with bitterness and hardship.” And I not even mentioned that he was chained and imprisoned by his king.

So, this was not a preacher who had hundreds of thousands of followers because of his marvelous worldwide television ministry. Behind the scenes there weren’t a multitude of people praying for Jeremiah and financially supporting him. In many respects he was a lonely, broken man who unfortunately saw his dire predictions come true and who was right there when his nation fell to the Babylonians and he himself became a prisoner of war. To totally comprehend Jeremiah’s difficult assignment as a spokesperson for his God, you need to listen carefully to these words of his.

“Cursed be the day I was born! Cursed be the man who brought my father the news, who made him very glad, saying, ‘A child is born to you—a son!’ May that man be like the towns the Lord overthrew without pity. May he hear wailing in the morning, a battle cry at noon. For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever. Why did I ever come out of the womb to see trouble and sorrow and to end my days in shame?”

Same chapter, Jeremiah 20. “I am ridiculed all day long; everyone mocks me. Whenever I speak, I cry out proclaiming violence and destruction. So, the word of the Lord has brought me insult and reproach all day long. But if I say, ‘I will not mention him or speak anymore in his name,’ his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot. I’m weary of holding it in indeed I cannot.”

May I make it clear that quite often the prophetic calling is a rough one. I have a conviction that America is presently wrestling with God. That’s probably a strange new thought for many people. For others to hear such a declaration puts me into the category of another of those, quote, “Idiot street corner preachers.”

Laugh someone. America is presently wrestling with God. To hear such a thought put into a historical setting from some 2,500 years ago. Okay, I mean that’s more acceptable because people back then weren’t as intellectually sophisticated as we are now. But for someone to declare that present day America is wrestling with God, sounds like the words of a nutcase. So, I’m out of here. Goodbye. And I thank you for not leaving.

The late Vance Havner wrote, “Becoming a minister is not a matter of looking over an assortment of professions. Law, medicine, physics, music. And then saying, ‘I think I’ll be a preacher.’ He writes God is not running a cafeteria where you choose your favorite piece of pie. Jeremiah had a holy bone fire. He did not merely have to say something. He had something he had to say.”

Not long back on this podcast we replayed some earlier visits with Leonard Ravenhill. Here are his written words preserved in a book he wrote.

“The prophets were God’s cabinet members. He whispered his secrets to them. They shared his foreknowledge. The prophets were a rare breed. They were God’s emergency for crisis hours.” Then Leonard wrote, “We need them at this hour in the history of America.”

Hey Leonard, we miss you.

That conviction I share about America wrestling with God is deep seated. I can’t just shake it. This nation, our nation, is in a wrestling match with God. He’s got us in a hole with no intention of letting go or letting up on the pressure he’s exerting. Now hear me. If our nation is wrestling with God, a change of political leadership will not solve our many problems.

Let me explain. For many today, I believe the country is kind of on hold until Tuesday, November 3rd. That’s when the people vote in the presidential election. Don’t get me wrong, it’s important that you and I vote for the candidate of our choice. So, no doubt about it, November 3rd will be a major day in the history of our country. But neither a continuation of the present political leadership, or with a sweeping change, the problems we face are not just going to quickly vanish. For example, the coronavirus will still be with us on November 4. The matter of the ever-increasing gap between the rich and the poor won’t be resolved on election day. Practice liars, or if you prefer, spin experts won’t suddenly start telling the unvarnished truth. Our massive federal spending on the military won’t stop, neither will our boasting about having quote, “the greatest armed forces anywhere in the world.”

Sex trafficking will remain a sad problem. There will still be gun violence in our cities and weekends with melancholy reports of more innocent children being shot. Ministers will continue to preach nice sermons that, in the words of Jeremiah, “dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.” Our oceans will act the resources needed to renew them. Incarceration rates will remain skewed against the poor. Abortions will still be commonplace. Scandals will carry on relatively routinely. Unemployment won’t magically go away. Rapidly accelerating climate change will keep the young frustrated and angry. Incessant talkers will carry on while lacking the ability to listen empathetically. A great divide will remain between schools and rich neighborhoods compared to those in poor neighborhoods, and I could go on for some time with illustrations like this, but I’ll stop.

What I’m telling you is that if our nation is wrestling with God, keeping under the same political umbrella, or changing it will not solve all our pressing problems. Personally, I believe God has America in a brutal headlock with no intention of letting go.

Many decades back I was on the Quincy, Illinois high school wrestling team. The opposing school that we always dreaded meeting was Wood River, a tough suburb of St. Louis, but on the Illinois side of the Mississippi River. Smaller wrestlers like me were always in the early matches, so the bigger guys on the team got to watch before it was their turn. How we did set a tone for the team. At least that’s what Coach Sloan told us.

In round one, before I knew it, my opponent had made what was called the grapevine. Painful, yeah, but I was determined he wouldn’t pin me. By sheer willpower, I avoided that fate and eventually the time in the round ran out.

Short break, round two. At the last moment I recall Coach Sloan saying, “David, don’t let him get you in a grapevine again.” Well, I had figured that out on my own. Unfortunately, I hadn’t figured out how to prohibit that dreaded opponent of mine from Wood River from fulfilling what his intentions were. And it wasn’t but a matter of 30 seconds in before I was once again grapevined. I vividly recall looking over at Mr. Sloan who was slowly shaking his head negatively. And it was only with God’s grace that I did keep both shoulders from being pinned to the mat and eventually and mercifully once again the time ran out. Coach Sloan didn’t say anything. I mean coaching was only part time for him. I believe he also taught shop or maybe it was woodworking.

Between rounds two and three, I’m sure he was considering whether it was really worth the little extra money he got to take on this coaching assignment. But anyway, round three was, well, it was an exact repeat of rounds one and round two. This nasty, nasty Wood River wrestler never had the joy of pinning me, but when the time of the match mercifully ran out, he laughed as he got up off the map. I mean huge smile, high fives, grapevine, grapevine, grapevine, three in a row. He hit the wrestling jackpot and I was the pitiful loser. I hurt, I hurt really bad, and my feelings hurt even more than my body did. On top of that, I needed help just to get up.

Even in a big strong nation with an international reputation for greatness, “We’re the best.” It’s foolish for thinking that it can win in a wrestling match with God. It is both foolish and foolhardy. If America presumes it can defeat God in a one-on-one, it is delusional. I’ll tell you what it will be.

Grapevine, grapevine, grapevine, grapevine, grapevine. To be more clear, wrestling with God is usually about the role he is going to be allowed to play in one’s life. That’s true whether the struggle is personal or national, and more often than not, the encounter involves a wounding.

In the book of Genesis, we have the story of Jacob and Esau. They are sons of Isaac so their grandfather was the godly Abraham. The older brother Esau was not all that inclined spiritually. Jacob was, but he was also a thief who robbed his older sibling of certain inheritances. Afraid for his life, Jacob fled from home and went to work for and live with an even bigger cheat, his uncle Laban. For example, falling in love with Laban’s daughter, the beautiful Rachel, Jacob was told he could have her as wife if he would work for Laban for seven years. But lo and behold, on his wedding night Jacob discovered he was given Laban’s older daughter, Leah, instead of the woman he wanted.

Other dirty tricks eventually led to now wealthy Jacob wanting to return home with the two sisters and his children because Rachel was now his wife as well. Skipping details on his way back to his place of origin, Jacob is informed that his brother Esau is coming to meet him with some four hundred men. Terrified, Jacob puts together a peace offering of two hundred female goats and twenty males. Two hundred ewes and twenty rams, two hundred female camels and their young, forty cows and ten bulls, twenty female donkeys and ten male donkeys.

“So, Jacob’s gifts went on ahead of him,” reads the Bible, “but he himself spent the night in the camp and that’s when we have this well-told tale of Jacob wrestling with God.”

Here’s the biblical account. “So, Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled and the man said, ‘let me go for its daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ The man asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then the man said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.’ Jacob said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he replied, ‘Why do you ask my name?’ Then he blessed him there. Then Jacob called the place Penile saying, ‘It is because I saw God face to face and yet my life was spared.’ The sun rose above him as he passed Penile and he was limping because of his hip.”

So, Jacob is returning to his roots but it’s like God is saying to him, “This is an incredible opportunity for you to start once again and do it right this time. So, what part am I going to be allowed to play in your life?” And he wrestles with Jacob regarding the matter.

It was an all evening long spiritual matter because Jacob proved to be a tough nut to crack. Tradition tells us that physically speaking, Jacob was very strong. “’I need to go,’ said the heavenly being. ‘It’s almost daybreak.’ ‘But I won’t let you go unless you bless me,’ is Jacob’s response.”

So, Jacob was given a new name, Israel. It means he struggles with God. But that’s not all he got. He also got a blessing, and he received a lifelong wound. Now he was limping badly because of his out of joint hip. From that night on, Jacob would have to find his strength in some other venue.

Wrestling with God. I’ll say it again. Wrestling with God is usually about the role he’s going to play in your life. Will you continue to rely on your own strength and cunning or are you willing to learn about the great strength of the Lord?

This is a life-altering choice and it’s not uncommon for it to be accompanied by a wounding. Once more. I believe America is presently wrestling with God and the role he’s going to be allowed to play in the life of the nation. That doesn’t mean everyone must become a Christ follower. But God and his son cannot continue to be shut out of all decisions. So, hear me. There is nothing wrong with Christian leaders saying, my personal faith makes it impossible to just look the other way when we make key decisions that are unjust to the poor. Or to ask, when did telling the truth go out of style?

I don’t believe getting used to lying is good for this country or for this company. Or to explain, please understand that you are asking me to side with a policy that is inconsistent with what I believe scripture teaches about the sanctity of life. Or my convictions about the wonder of God’s creation prompt me to vote no on this proposal. And yes, to express simple statements of faith may result in a bruising or two until people get more used to it. But if this nation is to have a new start, such convictions are going to have to be stated by more and more of us.

The wrestling I have been referring to is about the role God is going to be allowed to play in our lives and in the life of our nation. And just be aware that the wounds of man are nothing compared to the potential wounds of the Lord. Thanks for listening, sweetie. What are you thinking?

Karen:     Well, I think we were talking about prophetic messages. This certainly is one. I mean, I know you’ve been wrestling with what is the Lord trying to say through this COVID-19 isolation that we’re all going through and variety of things. I agree with you. I think that we have become insipid in our faith practice. And we’ve become enculturated as a group of Christians. And I think as Evangelical Christians, people in the background that we come from, there isn’t that, I mean, listening to someone like Helen Roseveare, who’s broadcast that we aired, you know, she died just a little bit ago. But her story of God’s work in the most dramatic and painful circumstances was powerful. And the thing that impressed me about her was her generation was so impassioned with the love of Jesus and the centrality of Jesus to her life.

It was Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I don’t see that among those in our Christian circle. Wonderful people, devout people. But there isn’t that passion where you just wake up in love with Christ in such an extent you can hardly bear it. So, I think in all of our lives, even those of us who consider ourselves faithful followers of Christ, we need the shaking. And when we become shaken, when the churches of all kinds become impacted with the fact that we have lost the essential meaning and passion of our Christian faith, it’s become proforma. When that begins to get ganged again, I think we’re going to see the results that you’re asking for. I don’t like Jeremiah as the book. It’s really a hard book to read and to understand.

David:     It’s a terrible day in which you live.

Karen:     A terrible day. But you know, we really aren’t that far from it when you look at our media emphasis. And the language, the public discourse is just out of hand. And too many Christians have slipped into that same sort of thing.

David:     Lack of love.

Karen:     Lack of love. Name calling. Yeah, it just is extraordinary. So yeah, I think we need to listen to this. We need to go before the Lord and say, “Break me. Touch me first before I start praying about you touching anyone else.” That’s really, I think, where God’s work needs to start with each one of us who’s concerned about this and each one who’s listening to this podcast. And I would suggest that people send this podcast via email or text to other people to listen to it. Because I think it’s a prophetic word that God has given you.

David:     We appreciate you listening. Love you.

Karen:     Love you too.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2020 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.