David:     Fill in the blank, Karen, okay?

Karen:     Okay.

David:     The holiday that requires the most work for me is blank.

Karen:     Christmas.

David:     You didn’t even pause for a moment. We have just come through Thanksgiving, and you were quite active, putting pieces together with other members of the family.

Karen:     Right.

David:     But Christmas, wow.

Karen:     Yeah, it’s a lot to pull off a good Christmas and we’ll talk about that more.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Would you like for me to fill in my blank? The holiday that requires the most work for David is Christmas.

Karen:     Well, you do all the Christmas presents.

David:     You kind of leave that to me.

Karen:     Yeah, I let you do all the Christmas presents. In the last years, we’ve sort of cut back even on that. We have one tradition that everyone loves, which is white elephant. So, they’re white elephant gifts.

David:     Well, the grandkids really like that.

Karen:     Yeah, once your gift is picked, if you don’t have a gift in hand, then you can go take a gift from anyone else in the room. So, it’s just a lot of laughter and a lot of fun.

David:     And stinky people who put very bad gifts.

Karen:     Or fun gifts. So that’s been a happy time for us. But I think at our stage in life, David, we’re beginning to think how much we can really do anymore. And this Thanksgiving meal was lovely, and we had family around the table. But I think it may be the last Thanksgiving meal that I put on. And everyone helped. I mean, they brought things, and you know…

David:     Other members of the family are saying this to you as well.

Karen:     Yeah, and I’m hearing it from others. And I’m fine. I don’t take that as an insult, although it’s an adjustment.

David:     Aging sagely. Did we make that word up? I’ll give the sentence first. Aging sagely is easier for those who trust God in the process. We need to define what that means. I was reminded of aging because Rosalind Carter passed recently.

Karen:     Right. Former president’s wife.

David:     And she’s under hospice care.

Karen:     Right. You know, that was a remarkable couple. Just an absolutely remarkable couple. And with her death, it’s become very clear. There’s a biography on Carter. Do you remember the title?

David:     My very best, something like that.

Karen:     My very best.

David:     He was far more qualified than anybody realized as far as just his intellectual background, his training and such.

Karen:     It was in physics. I can’t remember the exact title of what kind of physicist he was. And they had this extraordinary way of not leaving the world that had formed them into which they had given most of their lives. I mean, for all practical purposes, he was a peanut farmer.

David:     But much more than that sounds like.

Karen:     Yeah. But he maintained that. That was no shame to him. That was not something he needed to deny in his life. He was proud.

David:     He was playing Georgia. He was the most powerful man in the world. And now he reverts to what he was before. He’s not ashamed of that. He basically, that’s who I am.

Karen:     And that was a point of identity for him?

David:     Including Karen, every Sunday teaching Sunday school at his church.

Karen:     Now, she was as remarkable as he was. And we’re just, because of her death beginning to be reminded, I mean, there was a whole generation who had no idea who the Carters were. Even then, he was president. He was president for four years.

David:     Very difficult years.

Karen:     A hostage crisis, and Iran.

David:     Yes, any four years of president’s community hit really difficult times.

Karen:     Yeah. But he returned to the world that he loved.

David:     Including his Christian faith, Karen.

Karen:     And then he began to do profound things overseas. One of the things he did was become a stalwart in Habitat For Humanity. That was building homes for the poor and the oppressed who couldn’t afford homes. I mean, that was extraordinary in itself.

David:     Every house is really what we’re talking about.

Karen:     Yeah. And then he had great outreach in the Middle East and the problems in the Middle East as well. So, it’s a biography that really is worth reading. But what we admire about them when we were talking about her death was how they didn’t get caught up in the Washington glamour. They weren’t hot checks. They didn’t sell themselves to that world. But they went back home to Plains, Georgia, and to their faith.

David:     They were avowedly Christian.

Karen:     But not offensively so. It was just a remarkable couple.

David:     And they aged well.

Karen:     They did age well.

David:     You know, they didn’t call attention to themselves. They just were who they were. They were living out their lives honoring Jesus.

Karen:     So, I think that would be an example of someone that we know from our generation and much of America knew who is an example of what aging sagely means. And can I say something about sagely? Sagely is an adverb, David. But it comes from the word sage. An old sage is an old wise person, a sage. So, aging sagely means to age wisely.

David:     People usually can tell whether you had a part in writing the key sentence or it was entirely done on my own. I’m more the horsey ducky type.

Karen:     No, you are not.

David:     I’m going to go to scripture and I’m going to say it’s not easy to age. And as an example, I would take King David in the Old Testament. He was a warrior. He was a phenomenal person in every way imaginable.

Karen:     A music master,  an artist, and Psalmist. You know, extraordinary.

David:     And a warrior.

Karen:     And a warrior as well, and a governor and a king.

David:     And there came a time when his friends, probably family as well, said, “Hey David, guess what? You’re not going to war with us this time.”

Karen:     No.

David:     You’re not the man you used to be. And when people recognize this, they’ll do everything they can to put three or four on you and then you’re gone and then we’re in real trouble. Because you’re a great king, that’s not a problem.

Karen:     We need your leadership in Israel.

David:     But warrior, no, not any longer. And that’s played out in all of our lives. You know, you’re saying things to me like you can’t be a warrior anymore, but it’s not warrior, it’s what?

Karen:     Driver. I was wondering how long it would take for you to notice that I say, “Oh, I’ll go with you.”

David:     It was clever, but I figured that out now. You’ve said, “It’s not so much my company that you want, it’s making sure that I keep my mind on the road.”

Karen:     Yeah, you get diverted, but you have always been a wonderful driver. I mean, very safe, very excellent driver, but you’re taking those turns a little too fast. You’re getting distracted.

David:     No, it’s driving with Miss Karen.

Karen:     Yeah, Miss Karen, and probably it will be Miss Karen driving David.

David:     It’s possible. But I’m learning. You know what, Karen? There are wise people in our government. You know how often I have to go to get a driver’s test to get a license now? At my age, yep, I’m 87, and I have to go every year. Made me very mad, and then I thought, yeah, these people are pretty smart.

Karen:     Yeah, pretty smart.

David:     They’ve dealt with more than one David Mains driver who’s getting past his prime as far as driving is concerned. And I’m saying the same things to you. You can’t have five books you’re writing on all at the same time.

Karen:     Focus, focus.

David:     You’ve got to focus on one and get it done. And if God is kind to you, you might get another one done. And we’ll worry about after that, after that.

Karen:     So, what we’re doing now, we’re in the middle of a discussion, we’re letting our listeners hear this discussion. It’ll go on for a few more podcasts of saying if this is so, if these are the realities of aging, and we want to be wise in our aging process, then we have to start handing things off. And we have a group of people who are very willing and ready to sort of pick up after us.

David:     And the busiest time of the year, Christmas time, which lasts not just a day or a week, but it’s almost like a month. You’re talking sometimes Advent, which is four Sundays prior to Christmas Day. Sometimes it goes all the way back into November.

Karen:     Yeah, it’s the preseason, and Advent in the church calendar, which we weren’t familiar with until we began to interact with people from liturgical churches. In the church calendar, Advent is four Sundays, and it’s a time for self-examination. It’s a time for saying, “Am I really who God wants me to be, and for repentance, and saying, I’m sorry, I haven’t practiced the things I vowed that I would practice, that would be my spiritual work.

David:     Well, Advent, it’s talking about the coming of the Christ, but that’s what the Advent is.

Karen:     So that I will be ready for that day. So that I will be.

David:     Because it’s not just Christ’s first coming as a babe in Bethlehem. It’s also about his second coming.

Karen:     It’s making yourself ready for the Christmas season.

David:     Which is not easy to do because Christmas almost takes over in this country. Every day it’s just packed full of activities.

Karen:     Well, and it’s very commercialized, and those are things that we are distressed about. So then how are we going to make that practice a really spiritual, holy, and religious one, not just a day of giving gifts, etc., but one that honors the Christ’s birth in a way that is spiritual, that is meaningful, that is intentional.

David:     Aging, sagely, okay. Is easier for those who trust God in the process. What does it mean to trust God in the process?

Karen:     Well, I think there are a lot of dilemmas that people face as they age. The health dilemmas, our bodies are failing.

David:     Not only just failing, but just getting older.

Karen:     Getting up and down the stairs, and being tipsy as you walk, and getting tired faster.

David:     Confusing things in your mind.

Karen:     There are a lot of ailments that accompany the aging process as well, or we’ve had before in our lives, and they are manifested more, and they take more control as we get older. So, we’re trying to say to the Lord, “Help us live these years with the right kind of attitude. Don’t let us get negative and cranky. I mean, you hear about cranky old people. Let us be people who encourage, lift up, love, experience your presence, perhaps in ways we didn’t experience it, even when we were younger and walking very closely with you.”

One of the descriptions of God that I love, when I have a prayer journal, working it every day, and I always choose one quality to praise him, who he is, one quality about him. And the one that deals with this aging discussion is, he is the ancient of days.

David:     Oh, that’s really neat.

Karen:     Isn’t that beautiful?

David:     Yeah, that’s neat.

Karen:     The ancient of days. Well in the world. What does that unfold?

David:     He has always been, he always will be. He doesn’t age.

Karen:     Yeah, beautiful, isn’t it? It’s just a beautiful thought.

David:     Well, it gives me the goosebumps.  That’s really neat. One of the persons I think of, Karen, from our past experience, who aged very well, in fact, a couple, Norman Vincent Peale and his wife, they were amazing people in terms of the ministry they carried on.

Karen:     He was the author of The Power Of Positive Thinking. And that was an extraordinary concept. Don’t dwell on the negative. What happens when you have positivity in your thinking as a baseline?

David:     He was the pastor at Marble Collegiate Church in New York.

Karen:     A huge church in New York. He was there for decades.

David:     He was meeting with his supporters, the low thousands who were there in Acapulco. And in God’s providence, he asked us to come. Each of us had a speaking spot to be able to address his people. How gracious of him.

Karen:     Well, lovely. We had the radio broadcast at that time, so that gave us a platform. And we watched him function. And he just was grace personified. His wife Ruth was very much a part of his outreach ministry. A major player. And she brought gifts to that graciousness. She was the organizational, getting-it-going kind of person.

David:     To illustrate that, he actually came and listened to me speak. Which doesn’t happen a lot of times.

Karen:     Sometimes that does not happen.

David:     They ask you to come, but then you are kind of on your own.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     And then he went out of his way to talk to me and tell me what he liked about what I had said. And affirmed me. It was absolutely wonderful what he did.

Karen:     And he had some suggestions for you that would improve your communication process. It was lovely. It was an old man mentoring a younger man. Just couldn’t have been a lovelier gift.

David:     I look back now and as you talk about it, and as I think about it, it was one of the highlights of my life. I would like to be as he was to other people. It was unusual. It was a sage if you please.

Karen:     A sage.

David:     Saying to a younger man, “This is how I honor you.” And I think that’s what we want in our families. We want the families to hear what our thinking is, to honor us. And at the same time, we want to honor them in the way they are picking up jobs that we always did. But now we can’t do as easily.

Karen:     Our adult children are very proficient in their fields. They have much to contribute and we need to be handing family arrangements, the vision for the future over to them. And I think we are doing that, but sometimes a little reluctantly.

David:     I find that they are very gracious in terms of watching dad and saying the same things you are. “You’re not as alert as a driver, dad. You’re going to have to kind of pass this off. It’s all right if you drive to the post office.” My grandchildren, some of them went with me and with you up to Stratford, Ontario.

Karen:     For the Shakespeare Festival.

Karen:     And there were times when I offered to drive, and they were very gracious.

Karen:     No papa we’ll do it.

David:     We had a good night’s sleep. We enjoy you talking to us. It was a very good experience. And again, an awareness as I would talk to the Lord about the day is that the time is coming when you’ll not be able to drive at all. You’re just getting old. You’re getting close to 90. Just to watch how they operate and kind of laugh to myself.

Karen:     So, what are we saying to our listeners who, many of them, may be going through the same process that we’re going through?

David:     Aging sagely is easier for those who trust God in the process. Maybe that’s a phrase that makes sense to us, but not to them. So, what does it mean to trust God in the process? People give you messages that are not always the easiest messages for them to communicate. Such as you tend to get involved in the conversation so much that you forget that you’re driving.

And we notice it’s happening. And it’s not that we don’t want to be in the car with you when you have an accident. It’s just that we think other people could probably handle that just as well as you and maybe even better.

Well, I can get my feelings hurt or I can in the process of my daily prayer time say, “Tell me what I need to hear in this regard.” And I need to hear that they love you. They want you to be around for a long time. They can pick up certain jobs that you used to always do. And they can do them just as well and free you to be who you are in all of your strength as an older man. Just kind of get off your high horse.

“It’s just as hard for the family letting you know that there are certain areas where you need to back away from now and don’t keep those responsibilities. We can even help around the house. And it’s not to insult you. It’s to say we love having you here.” Are you hearing David? And I’m saying, “Yeah, Lord, I’m hearing.” But it’s like King David when they say life is changing David. You’re not going to be a warrior anymore. In fact, it comes to the end of his life. It’s kind of interesting. You remember that scripture? It says David couldn’t keep himself warm. Just he would shiver. And so, they decided they would help him out. And this kind of funny solution.

Karen:     They did get a young woman to sleep beside him and warm his body.

David:     A beautiful woman. I wonder what she thought about that assignment. The scripture makes it very plain. They did not have sexual relationships. It’s just that he was shivering as an old man, and he needed to be warmed.

Karen:     So, we’re going to talk about this in the next podcast for a while because it’s a learning process for us. We suspect that many of our listeners have contributions to make because they’re having the same sorts of conversations and we’d love to hear from them because we can learn from them.

David:     Yeah, we can become sages and we can leave memories like the peals in our lives of people who are gracious and wise and loving and wow, we don’t want to see them go.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.