David:     As you no doubt already know, churches are made up of people with various talents. We’re going to use the biblical term, various gifts of the Holy Spirit. For example, some are exceptional musicians. I am not one of those.

Karen:     But you’re from an exceptionally musical family. And I have a passion regarding the gift of hospitality. My belief is that the American church has not yet tapped into that gift the way it should.

David:     Let me add that not all Christians are skilled in the area of personal evangelism. I know that. Anyway, this visit I would like to share one of the lessons I have learned over the years in regard to this gift of sharing Christ’s message with others.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Here’s our key sentence for this visit right up front.

Karen:     Asking appropriate questions can be an effective way of introducing people to Christ and His kingdom.

David:     Okay, asking appropriate questions. I don’t think you’ve probably had this experience, Karen, but I’ve every so often when the car doesn’t work the way it should. I’ve gone to the garage and the person will ask me, “What’s the difficulty?” I say, well, “It’s kind of making “gurgly” sounds” and so on. And then they will say something like, “Your distributor cap came off the housing and the oil spilled all over the valves and notice the valves there charred beside that bud. Your master cylinder is leaking, and the differential is in…” by that time I’m blanked out. He’s talking a language I don’t understand at all.

Now, does that make sense as to where I’m going with this visit?

Karen:     Well, yes, it does because often those of us who have been Christians for years or decades have developed kind of a Christian-ese language that we get. But the average lay person, particularly someone who’s not a part of the church, he hasn’t had a background in faith of any kind. It is like speaking another language.

David:     And if they’re polite, they just kind of blank out until finally you stop talking.

Karen:     Maybe you get the hint that they’re not interested in that language.

David:     Well, sometimes all they can do is say, “Oh, yeah, sure.” But the communication isn’t really going on the way it should be because we haven’t really figured out what they’re understanding. We’re just kind of dumping a load on them.

I started long decades back in this process because I’d travel a lot and you’d be next to people on a plane or whatever. And I decided that I needed to come up with questions. A lot of times they will ask, “Well, what do you do?”

Karen:     This would be your seatmate. Or maybe someone’s sitting at the gate.

David:     Yes, or somebody in the lounge before they get on the plane. “I’m a minister.” Oh, and that shuts the conversation off immediately. Or otherwise, it could open the door to “Are you interested in spiritual things at all?” I ask, you know.

Karen:     The interesting thing to me, because I’ve also been an observer of this phenomenon in your life; is that I think more people are interested in sitting next to an ordained minister than those who think, oh, oh.

It’s really intriguing to me that they will say, “Well, where do you pastor?” “Well, we don’t pastor, we’re in media ministry.”

You did pastor for years. Then after they engage you in that way, then you begin to ask these questions that we’re going to talk about now today.

David:     Yeah, do you have anybody from your background in the family who was a church person? You don’t attend church, but any of that that you recollect at all, which gets them talking. And sometimes they will say, “Yes,” and sometimes they will say, “No, we’re just not church people.”

Karen:     You might ask an initial question of, “What did you stop church? Did you just grow out of the habit, stop going to church? Was there something that happened that turned you off?”

I mean, there are toxic situations in all of life, and that can happen in church life as well.

David:     You can tell pretty quickly whether they’re interested in talking or whatever. So just good questions, open them up, and pretty soon they’re talking freely and they’re not defensive. And I find that to be the approach that I really am comfortable with.

Karen:     You know, David, I think many people think about spiritual reality and about their own situation spiritually wise more than we understand. I mean, you can’t miss it in conversations, so they have someone in their workplace who is a loving, outstanding Christian. And so, I think there are more people who are perplexed or interested in faith and don’t have anyone to really talk it over with. And then they don’t want to be cornered either. So, they’re cautious in how they approach it. But I frankly have been amazed at the kinds of conversations you’ve opened up with perfect strangers in a variety of places. You know, at restaurants with a waitress sometimes, that people begin to be trusting of you and to begin to reveal what their spiritual journey is or is not.

David:     “Who do you know that you would say represents what a Christian really is?”

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     And then they will begin to talk about somebody they knew a long time ago.

Karen:     A teacher, you know, there’ll be a friend, their family, I always went to church, they took me to church sometimes with them, you know, just as a whole variety of answers.

David:     It’s interesting also to me, Karen, that sometimes when I lead asking questions, they will ask questions of me. “What would you say a Christian is?” And I’d say, “Well, let’s talk lifestyle. If you were to become a Christian, how would that change the way you presently live?” And that’s kind of a key question in my mind. I like to get it to that place.

If they say, “Well, what’s your answer to that?” And then I’ll say, “If a person is truly to be a Christ follower, their life will manifest a love for God and a love for others.” That’s been, at least in my own life, a huge change as I began to understand more and more what following Christ was like. And as I read his words, this is the lifestyle of what a follower of Jesus does.

He loves God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and love in his neighbor as himself. I fall short, but that’s the ideal.

Karen:     I would add that last part. I do think that when we begin to form and frame our personal identity in Christ, we see who he has made us to be and how he wants us to function. What kind of gifts he has given to us so that we can function as healers and lovers and caregivers in the world around us. So, as you love yourself, I think as part of the framing that happens when we begin to follow Christ. He renews our self-image.

A lot of people are very down on who they are. I mean, it comes out in their conversations. I never do anything right.

David:     Or huge guilt feelings.

Karen:     Or huge guilt feelings. That would be another thing. So, I think that’s important to emphasize in these conversations that God restores you when we journey with him to what he intended you to be. And you begin to function in his pleasure.

David:     I have often said to people, “It sounds like from the way you’re talking is you do pretty well in terms of this loving others and that you kind of fall short with this loving God.” So, the question is, “Do you want to see change in those areas?” But the more interested they are.

Karen:     The more engaged.

David:     Yes, I find myself being able to walk a given path which says, “Do you see yourself as having fallen short of that ideal of loving God and loving others?” And if it’s a normal conversation, they’ll say, “Oh yes.” “Do you ever fall short?” “Oh yeah, I have many times.” “How do you resolve that problem?”

And then you’re into them talking for a while. And a lot of times I’ll have people say, “Is that a good answer?” I’ll say, “Well.”

Karen:     No right or wrong answer. You know, it’s just a personal journey.

David:     Well, I would not say that’s a stupid answer. You know, “The Bible says,” I don’t think I would say that yet.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     Although I might turn to the scriptures, I find that when I open the Bible, we’re on a different world. I’m into the auto mechanics world where I’ve opened these cars-made type. And I’m talking to a person who knows very little about the Bible. I mean, you could read pretty much any verse and it’s going to be new to people.

Karen:     To many of them.

David:     Yeah. But I’m playing it by ear all the time trying to find out where are they in this faith journey.

Karen:     Another way of saying that is you’re being sensitive to those inner prods of the Holy Spirit. You have a format that you’re sharing now on the podcast that you use when you’re engaging people who are not basically walking in faith at this time in their lives. But it is one that is not set in cement. It’s not hide bound. And you begin to feel those promptings of the Holy Spirit as you listen to their answers. And then you are available, and you follow up on those promptings. And those are the promptings that open those people up in ways that are amazing and remarkable and wonderful.

David:     You may know somebody just think about it a little while. “Who do you think represents the Christian life in your mind?”

Karen:     You’re saying this to them.

David:     Yeah. And you know, I’ve had people say “Oprah does.” “Well, why does Oprah? That’s interesting.” “Yeah, I think highly of her.” And you know, so you’re processing it and trying to help them discover.

Karen:     People they might know. Think of them specifically, someone at work.

David:     “Without God’s help, do you think you could pull this off? Do you think God would like to give you any help?” Anyway, it is basically a probing by asking questions. And I find that that opens up people. They’re not defensive. And it doesn’t inhibit me from taking them from one step to the next step to help them see where they are in the journey to the place where eventually I can ask the question, “When do you think would be a good time to ask Jesus to forgive your sin and to start you in a whole new direction and by his spirit enter you so that you can be the person God intended you to be.”

Karen:     I think the psychological dynamic in this that is so powerful is that you are interested in who they are as a person, not just a number you’re going to put your scalp count or whatever you would say about that.

David:     That’s so far from where I am in my mind. I just don’t even want to entertain such a thought.

Karen:     But there are a lot of people who do sort of have a Christian faith that they want to give away and they’re so eager about it that they actually sometimes turn people off because they aren’t sensitive to those promptings.

David:     I feel for those people. And I hope some of them are listening because I think that it’s very difficult to want to witness and then jimmy it up so that when it’s all done you say, “Did I do a good job?”

Karen:     Yeah, you turned that guy off.

David:     But the whole idea of “I’m going to ask questions.” And Karen, I like the fact that asking questions seems to be some of what Jesus did all the time.

Karen:     Yeah, it was a prime tool. So, we have a book that you and Melissa Timberlake, our daughter, put together. The title is “Getting Beyond How Are You. Learning to Connect in a Disconnected World.”

David:     Yeah, there was a chapter in there that actually talks about using questions as a way of witnessing.

Karen:     Yeah, let me read some of the questions. These are Christ questions.

David:     All through scripture.

Karen:     All through scripture.

David:     I remember that chapter. That was written quite a while ago. Yeah.

Karen:     This is an extraordinary thing because we don’t often think of Christ communicating or opening up people’s minds to the spiritual potential of the world or life by just simply asking questions. So much of that in our framework, a conservative church background, has come through to sermonizing or teaching.

So, here’s Christ’s approach, “Which is easier to say?’ Your sins are forgiven or to say get up and walk.’”

He addressed that to the religious leaders of his day who were criticizing him. Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk.

Another question. “Can you make the guest of the bridegroom fast while he is with them?”

Now, that’s an interesting thing to consider, isn’t it?

David:     It’s a question again.

Karen:     “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?” Yeah, we do boast a little bit while we get along with our buddies. But what about those who do not love you? “Can a blind man lead a blind man?”

David:     Yeah, that’s a devastating question.

Karen:     Yeah. Where is your faith? Who touched me?

David:     Well, you have a pretty long list there, and I’m going to stop you because we’ve made the point. What it says is that Jesus in Scripture uses questions oftentimes, and Karen, even beyond that, often God uses questions as he deals with his people.

Karen:     The first book of the Bible in Genesis, in fact, that was God’s approach with Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman who he created. He put them in this luscious garden and then he would visit them. And the question he asked is, “Where are you? Where are you, Adam? Where are you, Eve?”

Now, that’s not just where are you in place and time. It’s an existential question that could be asked throughout the entire history of our personal lives. “Where are you?” God asks us that question these days through that prodding of the Holy Spirit. “Where are you?” And we have to then sit before him and say, “Well, this is where I am. I’m not living the life that you want me to live, or I’ve grown,” or whatever it is, but it’s a great question.

David:     I have found, Karen, that the question I’m eventually moving toward is, if Jesus could come into your life by his Spirit and forgive you of all sins past and help you to walk the new way of loving God and loving your mankind. When do you think would be a good time to ask him to do that? And it’s amazing to me. The answers I’ve had to that question over a period of time. I had one gentleman, I remember talking with him on the phone and he said, “I think”, and then he gave me a date about three days later, “that would be a good time.” And I said, “Okay, I’ll call you on the phone.” He was in Pennsylvania; I was in Chicago. And I said, “I’ll call you then. And we’ll go ahead with the process of you inviting Jesus to enter your life by his Spirit.” I called him, we walked carefully through what he knew so far, and I said, “And you said this would be a good time. Would you like to pray and do that now?” And he did. It was just as natural as it could be. And I was so curious when it was off, he said, “Why is it you said, I think, three days from now?” And he said, “You know what, David?” He said, “I was shaking so much in the previous conversation that I thought I got to get control of myself. And I knew what I wanted to do, and some people may say to me, ‘Maybe he would have died in between.’” I don’t think so.

Karen:     I think God’s hands.

David:     I think he’s in God’s hands and God understood the intent of his heart. And at the point he did, I said, “Fine, let’s do it. I’ll call you.” And I did and there it was.

Karen:     We had a church that we planted in the inner city of Chicago, and the average age was about 28 years of age. We’d have a church service at nine, and then we’d have a half hour sort of mingle time, and then small groups and classes after that.

We met in a great big hall. And one of the classes is always the pastor’s class. And you could come and talk to whoever had spoken that morning or preached that morning and ask them questions or clarify things you didn’t understand, or you had things that were intriguing that had come up after that sermon.

Now, part of what we did during those years was, I would prepare a meal and then not know who was coming. We’d just say, “You know, we have dinner ready and whoever wants to come with tables set.” Sat eight people, squeeze in two more. So, they’re off the table.

David:     These were new couples to the church.

Karen:     New couples to the church young and married lives in their early mid-20s.

David:     And the interesting thing, Karen, was that all the wives were Christians.

Karen:     All the wives were Christians.

David:     The husbands were not non-Christians, but they had come to church.

Karen:     So, you explained the things that you had been talking about on this podcast.

David:     I’m asking a lot of questions.

Karen:     I’m asking questions. Then you turned to the first young man and asked him if he thought he was ready. I don’t know exactly how it happened. It’s been a while.

David:     He said he was. And he said, well, let’s pray right now. And he did. It was a beautiful prayer.

Karen:     Led him to the Lord right there.

David:     And then the second couple.

Karen:     Number two.

David:     And another one.

Karen:     Same thing.

David:     And I got to number three, and he was a lawyer. He was kind of hesitant. And I said, “Well, where would you put yourself in that process? Is this something you feel keenly about it?” And then he didn’t answer, but his wife said, “I think the labor pains are about three minutes apart.”

Karen:     And eventually he did become a Christian.

David:     He did. Not that time. It wasn’t the time he thought to processing everything, but it wasn’t long before we had another believer. I don’t remember with the fourth one. I can’t even recall who that fourth one was, but it was very interesting. The spiritual birthing process was going on around the table.

Karen:     I want to emphasize to our listeners that this is so natural. It doesn’t feel contrived. There’s no pressure at all. You’re letting the Holy Spirit do his work in the lives of these diverse personalities with their unique time tables. And so, you do just trust that to work. And in this case, it was a beautiful picture of how God did it.

Two or three of them were ready after they had talked with you. We witnessed them accept Christ as their Savior. And yet the third or fourth one, whichever with this couple was felt free to say, “I’m not ready to do that right now.”

And I don’t believe he felt any pressure. He just needed with his lawyer’s mind more time to work it through, think it through and consider it.

David:     Let’s go back to that key sentence for the visit. Asking appropriate questions can be an effective way of introducing people to Christ’s kingdom.

Karen, that book, you mentioned the book you have. Let me see the title of it again. “Getting Beyond How Are You?”

I did it with our daughter, Melissa. It was sometime back. It’s not a very large book.

Karen:     It’s a little paperback book.

David:     And we still have copies of that. If you’re interested, I don’t want to sell it to you if you want to send a gift or you don’t have to send a gift. Just address us at Mainstay Ministries, Box 30. 3-0- Wheaton, W-H-E-A-T-O-N and Illinois 60187. And that will get in the box. And as I see your request for the book, I’d be happy to send it to you. And if you want to send a donation, that’s fine.

Karen:     And I think as you look at the book, many people will say this is perfect for our small group study or my Sunday school class. So, we do have quantities of this and could fulfill those orders if people wanted to do that. We’re not pressuring people, but it’s just been such an extraordinary tool that we’d like to share it.

David:     This whole matter, it’s like learning anything new. You’re not an expert at it, but you’re to the place where you’re saying, “I don’t feel like I’m manipulating people. I’m just trying to learn where they are coming from.”

And then I want to be able to say, “You know what, a good place for you to solve that problem, It’s at the cross. So that, if you wouldn’t mind, maybe in our prayers, we could pray right now and you could go to the cross and you could say to Jesus, ‘I’ve never had you enter my life. It sounds fascinating. The Holy Spirit coming to live in me and forgiving all my sin and helping me walk this very difficult way of loving God and loving people. I want that, Jesus. Please do that for me.’”

Well, it’s a fantastic sense of privilege on your part. So anyway,

Karen:     …that’s where we are.

Outro:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters, hosts@beforewego.show.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2022 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.