David:     A word picture from Scripture that we have talked about quite a bit this Christmas season is found in the writings of Isaiah.

Karen:     And this is chapter 9, verse 2 of Isaiah. “The people walking in darkness have seen a great light. In those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.” And this is the same chapter where Isaiah also writes, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.”

David:     I have a question for you, okay?

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Do you know how long it was, Karen, between the prophecy of Isaiah that you read and when it was actually fulfilled?

Karen:     Well, I know it was centuries, but I’m not sure how many.

David:     Well, good for you because it was centuries. 700 years, seven centuries, it’s like us going back in time to the 1300s. Would you say looking over the span saved our lifetime, put it in a much shorter framework, that the country has gotten darker? In John it says men love darkness because their deeds were evil, more than light. Do you think that we’ve gotten more evil as a culture, or have we improved? And is the light shining more brightly than when we were younger?

Karen:     Well, David, I think we would pretty much all agree that we’re losing the moral meaning of American culture. You know, we have a lot of comments that come across the media about this may be the end of democracy, etc., etc.

David:     They’re unusual.

Karen:     So, people are feeling uneasy. I’m not sure that their analysis of why is right, but I would say that one of the reasons we feel that way and one of the reasons that may topple our democracy is the fact that we have lost a common moral meaning. And let me just illustrate that by the concept of telling a lie. We were raised by parents who taught us not to lie that there were negative results that occurred when we lied; that the scripture taught us to be truthful and that your word was your bond. You could trust people for the most part when they said they would do something. But now that just seems to have totally disintegrated.

And I think that would be one of the symptoms of having lost our moral meaning in a whole culture. Not everyone is a liar, but…

David:     Truth is not as important as it used to be.

Karen:     Truth is not important. It’s not the standard. And that’s what we’ve lost. Not just the only thing we’ve lost, but that’s one example of what we’ve lost.

David:     We’ve lost life itself having meaning. I mean, the indiscriminate shootings. They’re absolutely amazing. The school shootings, you hope they’ll stop, but they just go on and on.

Karen:     Whoever would have thought that America would ever experience this kind of thing where you couldn’t send your children to school, and they would be safe, and you would be comfortable about that.

David:     Or you could be in an outside gathering and someone would come by and just…

Karen:     Indiscriminately.

David:     Indiscriminately shooting into the group and then, you know, how do you even find those people?

Karen:     I’m almost afraid to drive into the city. Not that we’ve had a lot of shootings on the expressway, but there have been a few. And these are indiscriminate. Someone drives past, shoots another driver in their car of those three. I think they were all murdered.

David:     It’s a sad day. How can it be that our grandchildren are coming to adulthood in a country that’s quite different than what we knew when we were at their ages? It’s an amazing day and how quickly things have been that way. And then on top of this, you have the world has changed immensely. What could have been great good, the internet is also option for great evil. The enemy has gotten in and taken advantage, if you say, just in an area like pornography. Huge problems that have trapped people. Drugs. You go back to 1300s, if I say that 700 years back, nobody dreamed of bombs being able to wipe out entire cities.

Karen:     Or a world that locally about them could take a world map. So, we live in perilous times. There’s no doubt about it. We live in perilous times. And we have a scripture, however, that speaks to that. You know that scripture?

David:     I’m not sure which one you’re referring to.

Karen:     Well, I’m thinking, we’re talking about the light shines in the darkness.

David:     I’ve thought about it all kinds of times. In fact, when we went to the Christmas concert, they sang those words from Isaiah. And it’s just been in my mind day after day. The light shines in darkness and the darkness has not overcome it, but it’s working at it.

Karen:     700 years later, if my accounting is right, John the Apostle also writes, “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God. The word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. Without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.”

David:     That’s pretty neat. I like that. The darkness has not overcome it.

Karen:     You were talking about a film you had gone to years ago by Fellini.

David:     Yeah, well, because we were talking about darkness, we were early married. It’s the first R rated film I ever went to in my life. I invited you to go with me and you chose not to. Well, Fellini was the director. He’s Italian. And they were accusing him in this interview I was watching of making a pornographic film. And he was quite vehement saying that’s not at all. What I was trying to do was to show the darkness and the awfulness and the ugliness of the world before the beauty and the love.

Karen:     Sweetness and love of Jesus Christ.

David:     Jesus, yeah. He certainly did that. There’s not a question in my mind. I remember parts of the film. The violence, the greed in terms of the world, the absolute brutality, insensitivity, lust, ego. I think maybe the thing that comes back to me mostly is I think about having watched that decades ago was the great gulf between the poor and the privileged. Very few of the privileged, they had everything.

Karen:     Lavish excess.

David:     Lavish, yes. And then the multitudes of people lived on almost nothing. And the world is that way in many cases even yet today. So then comes, if he was saying this right, and I don’t think the film did this, so he must have missed what he was trying to do to a degree, then comes the beauty and the sweetness and the power to change of Jesus.

Karen:     Well, I think his statement was that the world was like this all over the world before the light. He wouldn’t have used those words, but the light of Jesus Christ came to shine in the darkness.

David:     And that’s that beautiful picture, Karen, that you get all during the Christmas time when it comes to a fruition on Christmas day when the baby is born into the world. The hope of the nations rests with him.

Yeah. Karen, just today, one of the huge changes in our lifetime is that the center of Christianity is probably no longer in the United States of America. It’s probably in the continent of Africa, which has become more and more Christian all along. And then you have these strange places like in China where the church is still booming in many ways. Even though there’s been persecution.

Karen:     Mostly an underground church in a lot of ways.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     But there’s been a rapid growth of Christianity in that country. It’s amazing, isn’t it?

David:     Yeah, I don’t know why in the church, except the church in America has its own problems. The immorality of leaders and such. But I’m thinking in the church in America, I wish I would hear the call to prayer and fasting because this is a dark day, and we want that light to shine.

Karen:     I think one of our problems in the American church is that we have allowed ourselves to be so enculturated. You know, it’s almost a business model that dominates many churches.

I have no problems with, you know, wanting to run your finance as well and have a leadership structure that is according to gifts and abilities. But I think our model is not the scripture. It’s not people who have given themselves to a life of following Christ and serving Christ. And when the disciples were sent out, they were sent out without an extra cloak.

David:     Not even extra pair of shoes.

Karen:     Not even an extra pair of shoes. No money in the pocket. Because when the light shines into darkness, the things that occur, the miracles that occur and the changes that occur are extraordinarily powerful and can make very human vessels get caught up in the power rather than in the purpose. So, I think that our churches have often become modeled after how to achieve success rather than how do we achieve a church where the presence of Christ is felt in a way that is so dominant that you know the light is shining in the darkness. And I think that part of our dialogue as leaders or participants in the American church is how do we recapture what it is that we have lost? And then what is it that we really have lost?

What is it that we really have lost? Are we a praying church? Are we a church where we are sacrificially giving in a way not to the success of the church but to the outreach of the church?

David:     That has to be transferred down from the church to the individual in my that way.

Karen:     Right. In my that way. Right.

David:     Is my life such that people see the light shining through me, not for my aggrandizement but for Christ’s sake?

Karen:     Well, for the advancement of His Kingdom. Now you have a really, and we’ve mentioned this before, but I’d like you to talk a little bit more about your relationship that you have deliberately cultivated with the vendors who are all around us.

David:     You commend me in a way, but I feel that one of my huge things that I struggle with is that these people see me, and they like me. But they don’t like my Savior. They don’t like the one who has made me who I am. And a big reason they don’t see that is because I’m not vocal enough about the Lord. I’m really feeling convicted to speak out more. And some of that is going to be an inconvenience to me because people have problems, and they like to talk about their problems.

Karen:     They do even now.

David:     Yes.

Karen:     They’re often telling you what they’re going through.

David:     For me to give attention, which I do, and then say, “Here is what I would suggest and always taking it back to Jesus, the light of the world.” I’m not the light of the world. I’m a person who’s been affected by that. But I don’t think I’ve given the credit to the one who’s changed me nearly as much as I should. So that’s something I’m feeling I’m working on this Christmas season. And I say season because I know Christmas day things change. But the whole month of December is a time when people are very good conscious. They like the idea of giving, loving. Those are opportune times to use.

Karen:     Well, it’s a positive season nationally, which is a wonderful thing, even if you’re not a believer.

David:     I’m not into the superhero. I like this superhero enough. You know, I kind of keep quiet about the superhero. I came into the room the other day; you and our son Joel were watching a film. I said, “What are you watching?” And you said we’re watching Wonder Woman. I thought that is the most amazing answer. Karen doesn’t watch superheroes.

Karen:     Okay, okay. Let me explain.

Joel, as I’ve said before, was a film student. So, he looks at movies through a different lens than the average viewer. So, watching any film with him, any film…

David:     It’s very interesting.

Karen:     It’s always fascinating. But anyway, I’m interested in culture. What is the culture saying to those of us who are communicators in that culture? And there is a whole body, a whole genre of filmwork out there dealing with superheroes. I mean, it’s huge.

David:     And they’re successful. They’re massive blockbuster film.

Karen:     It comes from a comic structure first. There’s the DC Comics and the Marvel Comics, that much I get. But now they’ve all been made into film and they’re all about superheroes.

David:     And the viewers feel passionate.

Karen:     Feel passionate about it.

David:     They’re adults.

Karen:     Yeah, adults watching all of this stuff. So, Joel and I have taken it apart. And what we understand is that every human, I believe every human, whether you’re caught up with the Marvel DC Comics film genres that are going now, has a longing for a superhero. We want that person to come into our life who can help us to live the kind of lives we want to live and seem powerless to live on our own.

David:     And that person has the power.

Karen:     And that person has the power. We want the superhero to come and save us from our distresses or our flaws or the collapse of the economy or the collapse of the society as we are.

David:     Or our injustices.

Karen:     Our injustices.

David:     We’ve been cheated.

Karen:     Yeah, exactly. So that to me is what the amazing audience is saying without even knowing it, that followed the superhero genres that are going on in our film right now. And they’re huge. They’re many, many films. I just went on the internet. They’re like 51 superhero heroes.

David:     How many could you name?

Karen:     I don’t know. I didn’t try. But to me, that says there is the longing. These films are touching on and the deepest part of our human being, even with children probably, children, teens, young adults, adults, for a superhero to come and save us. Now that’s a longing for Christ. We don’t recognize it to be that. But this is an opportune moment for Christians who do know the superhero who has come, whose light has shined into darkness, who absolutely, utterly changed history and time and culture. The world has never been the same. It’s better in many, many, many, many ways. This is the season we’re in right now. And that scripture, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. Those are prophetic scriptures. But we live with the presence of Christ through the Holy Spirit in our daily lives. If we would just activate that, believe it and trust in it. The superhero we have met, we have bowed before him. He has enfolded us, and he lives within us. Now what a concept is that?

David:     He’s not disappointed.

Karen:     He’s not disappointed at us and he will not fail.

David:     And he’s coming again. Power and great glory.

Karen:     So, this message of Christianity, of Christmas, is much broader than we can possibly know.

David:     I’m convinced.

Karen:     Are you convinced?

David:     I’m not only convinced, but I’m also convinced that I don’t talk about him more than I do. It’s a mealy mouth. That’s a sin.

Karen:     I agree that. I probably am reticent to do that as well. But I have to remember that people are longing for this and wake up to those opportunities.

David:     Okay Karen, let me put into a sentence like is my habit. What it is we’re attempting to say.

In this nation marked by increasing spiritual darkness, I think that’s fair, in this nation marked by increasing spiritual darkness, the Christmas season, which is not just a day, it’s a whole month almost, the Christmas season is an opportune time for Christ followers to be more vocal about the superhero they most admire.

Karen:     No, that’s wonderful. Read it again.

David:     Okay. In this nation marked by increasing spiritual darkness, the Christmas season is an opportune time for Christ followers to be more vocal about the superhero they most admire. And that’s a sentence, not just for people who might be listening to us at this point, it’s a sentence for Mains. This is me talking to my own receptors and saying, this is for you, kiddo. Okay?

Karen:     I use our mailbox. We have a mailbox that’s across the street on the stand, you know, like the old country mailboxes. And I use the mailbox out there have little plantings that go around it in a half of a whiskey barrel that I plant things in, and I put signs in it. So, I’ve just taken down the give thanks signs. There were two give thanks signs that were out in the whiskey barrel and around the mailbox.

David:     For the Thanksgiving season.

Karen:     For the Thanksgiving season. I have a sign maker I can get signs made in a week. And I’m going to order signs that say, “The light shines in the darkness,” one sign. And then the other one is, “And the darkness cannot overcome it.” Or something along that line.

David:     I think that’s wonderful.

Karen:     You think that’s good? So, a little message on signs.

David:     Whatever you’re pushed spiritually, there’s a certain discomfort. During the Christmas season, I will take cookies around to the UPS store and the bank and the post office and the gas station at 10 and the different business establishments around here. What I don’t take with those is the focusing on Jesus. I think they say, “We really like that old geezer. He’s a good guy.”

Karen:     He’s a good guy.

David:     But that’s not enough. And then it’s not enough even to be more vocal because as soon as you’re more vocal, people want to talk and then their problems come up. And for me to give that time, I’ve come close to being overly busy. I think even at my age, I don’t stop. I keep going. But once you meet with someone, you can’t just have one session and then not pursue the friendship or the help that you can be. So, I’m aware that sometimes I don’t say what I should just because I’m protecting myself, time wise. I have X amount of time left. I don’t know how much, but I know that a lot of sand has gone down that lower part of the timer. So, I need to say, “Okay, God, I’m going to be more vocal and I’m going to let you take care of the time.”

Karen:     So, I guess the question we want to raise for our listener is: “What are you doing about displaying or showing or telling about the light that shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome? And reminding you that Christmas is an opportune time because people’s minds are sort of focused this way to begin to open up those conversations or to continue those conversations with the folks around your friends, family, neighbors, the vendors in your stores. See what happens. See what God does with that desire to say, “You know what, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome.”

David:     Yeah. And if you think about it and say the question we’re asked, who’s your superhero as easily as someone would say, Spider-Man, you know, that you respond and say, it’s Jesus Christ.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     Let me tell you why I say that.

Karen:     That’s great. That’s an idea. Yeah.

David:     There we go. There we go. I think we have said everything that we need to say, and we’ll just leave it there.

Karen:     Okay.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2022 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.