David:     In Luke chapter 21 about the crucifixion of Jesus, there is this interesting verse that reads, “It was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole earth until the ninth hour for the sun stopped shining.”

Karen:     Oh, that reminds me of Proverbs 29:4. “By justice a king gives a country stability, but he who is greedy for bribes tears it down.”

David:     That’s interesting Karen, especially when you think of the Old Testament passage. You remember where Abraham lies and tells Pharaoh, the Egyptian leader, that his wife, Sarah, is his sister?

Karen:     Or how about 1 Timothy, where Paul writes, “But godliness with contentment is great gain, for we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.”

David:     I think when a person comes to the Lord, it should be pretty quickly you’re going to talk in terms of baptism for them. Because baptism is a sign that, am I making sense?

Karen:     No, I can’t tell what you’re saying.

David:     Why am I not making sense?

Karen:     Because you’re not talking about the theme of this podcast, you’ve gone into another topic, right?

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains  and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Right about now some listener might be thinking, “I’m confused. What you’re saying isn’t making any sense to me.”

Karen:     So, let’s make some sense out of it. Here’s the point. When people go to church, it’s not all that unusual for the service to be made up of numerous parts that don’t seem to connect. Music, sermon, the prayer, the offering, the benediction, the announcement.

David:     All too often there’s no obvious theme that connects these various elements. It’s a great help to everyone when the person preaching puts the thrust of his or her sermon into a single sentence. It’s a great help to that person. It’s a great help to individuals who are listening. It’s certainly a great help to service planners so we don’t end up with disjointed parts like we were trying to illustrate as we began.

Karen:     Let’s talk about how we get a sentence. You have some words to help us with this?

David:     I think I’d like to take a very familiar passage of scripture and we’ll work with that. And I think in doing so it kind of answers your question. Okay?

Everyone knows about the parable of the Sower. This is Luke chapter 8. It’s Jesus speaking and I’m just going to read a paragraph where he explains what it is He’s been talking about to his closest disciples.

“This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear and then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among the thorns stands for those who hear but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures and they don’t mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart who hear the word. Retain it and by persevering produce a crop.”

Okay, so he’s explained what it is He’s talking about. Now, the question is how we get that into a sentence. Okay? Oh, you want to try it?

Karen:     No, you go ahead.  You’re good at this.

David:     Well, I picked up this phrase from what Jesus said about being noble and good hearts.

People with noble and good hearts retain what they hear from God, live accordingly and are spiritually productive. People with noble and good hearts retain what they hear from God, live accordingly and are spiritually productive.

Okay, so that pretty much summarizes. It doesn’t give the negative part nearly as much. But people understand the negative part.

Karen:     Ideally you want church services that are planned in such a way that all the elements of Church service enhance what you have chosen to be the theme. Or reduced to one sentence what the meaning of the sermon is. So that the other elements of service can be formed around that theme or emphasize that thing.

David:     And that theme is as follows: People with noble and good hearts, these are Jesus words, retain what they hear from God, live accordingly and are spiritually productive.

So, we want to be the seed that produces a hundred thousand times fold and so on. Now, Karen, I would like to know if you ever have this sense that you’re hearing from God in terms of your life?

Karen:     Yeah, very definitely. And that comes through a variety of means.

David:     Could be on a Sunday morning.

Karen:     Hopefully it is on Sunday mornings where we go back from church, the hour or so we’ve spent in morning service. And we think about what we’ve heard and say how does that work in my life, or the Lord really nudge me. But it happens as I’m reading scripture. I mean this is God speaking to us. I call them divine nudges. I mean that happens in so many ways in our lives.

When we have trained ourselves to be attentive to Him. It can happen when you’re reading scripture. It can be happening in a small group when someone in the small group says something, and you have an emotional reaction in a positive way toward it or even a negative way.

David:     Yeah, you don’t hear God’s voice, but you sense the Lord is saying “This is for you. Pay attention.”

Karen:     It’s more frayed than normal kinds of conversations that we have, or something has a deep meaning. You have to go away and say what was the meaning of that? Why was I so moved or why am I still thinking about it? But it’s not only limited to those spiritual activities. I can be in bed in the middle of the night. I often am awake in the middle of the night. And so I’ve tried to use this as a time for intercessory prayer. But the Lord will remind me that I need to call my brother which he did last night because they’ve had COVID, and his wife is in a wheelchair. They live in Iowa. We’re in Illinois and I need to get in contact with him. At least pray with him over the phone and see how he’s doing.

David:     So, you felt that was a word from the Lord?

Karen:     That was a nudge. It was a reminder from the Lord. It can be in a variety of ways that God really communicates to us.

David:     Give me another illustration. Because that sentence says, people with noble and good hearts retain what they hear from God. And people are going to say, “Well I’ve never heard God talk out loud.” In fact, it would scare the daylights out of someone.

Karen:     It could be a little awesome.

David:     But when’s a recent time say apart from church even when you felt God spoke to you?

Karen:     I have a perfect illustration.

David:     Oh good. Great.

Karen:     So, Pope Benedict died. I think he died on December 31st, the last day of the year. And so there had been retrospectives put together by the Catholic communication system on his life. And so, I happened to see one of those just the last week. And I was deeply, deeply moved by several things that were brought out by this retrospective about him. And one of them is that he had a phrase, sort of a mantra that he said over and over to himself, and it was “Jesus only.”

David:     “Jesus only.”

Karen:     That was the purpose of his life, to live with that sort of in mind. Jesus only. They wanted that to be the motivating reason of being. And so, I went in, and I just tried to check up a little bit more of this in a quick internet search. And it didn’t mention that, but it did mention that when he was on his deathbed, his very last words before he ceased breathing were these, “Jesus, I love you.” So that would be an example of what you’re talking about.

David:     So how did that speak to you? You felt God spoke to you through that.

Karen:     Yeah, I want the motivation of my life and the meaning of my life to be Jesus only. That doesn’t mean I’m not concerned about people. I want it to be the motivating force in my life. There’s such a deep desire in me. I responded to that story on such a deep level in my spirit that I think this is something that the Lord is really motivating me toward.

I turned 80 this month and we’ve served God, all of our married lives. And even as a young girl, I was raised in that environment. And my dad was a minister. In fact, they’re about 24 ordained pastors in the Burton family.

So, we grew up in that environment. But as I become more and more an adult, I think this is becoming at this later stage in my life, the great focus. Jesus only.

David:     Okay, so what we’re saying then in terms of your life is you, in a sense, feel strongly that God spoke to you.

Karen:     Yes, I did.

David:     So, what you’re trying to do now is to say, “I want to live accordingly in regard to what Jesus said and to be spiritually productive.”

Okay, there’s a good illustration.

I think that kind of “God spoke to me” response is what should be going on week after week after week in terms of most congregations. Does that make sense?

Karen:     Yes, it makes sense.

David:     Okay, now in order for that to happen again, what I’m saying is it’s almost imperative that the person who is preaching can say in a very simple way, “Here’s what it is I’m attempting to communicate on behalf of the Lord so that you can hear the Lord and respond to him.”

Karen:     And reduce it to one sentence. Don’t make it a paragraph because if it’s a paragraph, you really don’t have one idea. In fact, David in writing schools when you’re being groomed to become a writer or being taught to become a writer, you’re often asked, “Can you tell what you want to say in one sentence?” Now that sentence may change as you actually do the writing because you say, no, there’s another idea that pops up in the creative process. But it is extremely helpful to reduce what you think you’re attempting to say to just that phrase, that one phrase or that one sentence, not a whole great big paragraph. You focus, it makes your mind focus.

David:     So, what would happen is if the church leaders could get used to this, then all of a sudden, they’re not just preaching a sermon on their own, but say the music minister or the person in charge of the music program says, “Tell me what you’re preaching, yeah, I can tell you what I’m preaching, here it is.”

Then that person has opportunity to pick the kind of elements that will enforce what you’re saying or enhance what you’re saying, and it becomes a beautiful working together.

Karen:     Now a lot of churches across the country very small and they maybe have even a part-time pastor and maybe a part-time secretary. Or a full-time pastor and a full-time secretary, maybe someone who’s paid to do the choir and the music in the church. So, what they need to do is begin to pull on the gifts of their laypeople. In fact, that should happen anytime, anywhere, no matter how large the church staff is. Because it’s not until you get the laypeople involved that you get the lay viewpoint. And it’s so easy as professionals in any field to think only out of your professional position. Whereas when the laypeople are involved, they bring meaning to that service planning or that sermon input that a pastor is not going to think about on his or her own. And all of a sudden, your world opens up. And you think, “Oh my gosh, I would never have thought about it that way.” And you have a resource you draw from that relates then much, much, much better to other laypeople who make up the entire congregation big or small.

David:     Here’s where I’m circling back to where we began. It’s a great help to everyone when the person preaching puts the thrust of his or her sermon into a single sentence.

Karen:     This is a great help to everyone, including the person who is preaching.

David:     I would agree with that. I remember, Karen, trying to explain what I’m going to say in terms of the sermon. It never really connected with people until I said, okay, I’m going to put it to a sentence.

Karen:     Well, you had a funny little experience with this.

David:     Yeah, it’s terrible embarrassing times in life, Karen. Has it preached here years ago and it still makes me just think what a dope I am. We would have the service early and then people who wanted to, could sit down with the pastor and discuss the sermon. And there would be usually, oh I would guess five, six, seven, eight people do that. And to get the discussion going I would say, “Why don’t you as we go around the circle put into a sentence what you think I was attempting to say in the sermon.” That went very well. People were kind and one Sunday I got a visitor who came, and he sat in that class and he said, “Look at pastor, why don’t you try to put it into a sentence? What it is you were trying to say?” And I couldn’t do it. I could not do it. And that changed my life. As ministers people tend to think outline instead of sentence. But I was saying to them, “Let’s get into a sentence where we’re going with this series or with this sermon and they finally said we need to help you get that sentence together because it’s not clear pastor.” So anyway, let’s get into a sentence. We know exactly where we’re going. That’s not an easy thing to do but it’s learnable.

Karen:     Many pastors don’t even start to work on their sermon. They’ve been thinking about it maybe all week.

David:     And they’re probably thinking about outline. How do I along point 1,  point 2, point 3 and so on. It’s a discipline for preachers that is very hard to get into a sentence. What they think that passage is saying. And then if you preach that single truth, which is scriptural, it’s biblical, then you have all kind of opportunity for people to say “I’ll give a test. Oh, I know a song that says exactly what it is you’re preaching.” But you’re working with a service instead of just a sermon so that you don’t have different parts none of which fit together. But you have a unified whole and that’s very powerful.

Karen:     Those parts that are un-themed may be very strong in themselves. You may have a wonderful music presentation or acquire hymn or anthem. But when they coordinate, when they are themed, you get the same message here and there and there and there and your people or you as an attendee or someone sitting in the congregation go away thinking about the theme of that morning in a way that you probably wouldn’t have done had it not been so universally themed in that hour.

David:     Yeah, and you’re not like how we started the podcast with these…

Karen:     Despair.

David:     Despair, it’s a good word. You get this truth and then this truth and then this truth. We had Karen, during the Christmas time when one of the pastors at the church we are, he preached, and he preached about the star of Bethlehem. And he had a visual presentation and such and it was a very interesting and compelling truth he was preaching.

When it was done, a mother, she’s a young mother, and her 10-year-old daughter went up to the front. She had a guitar. Her daughter, 10-years-old, went to the keyboard and they sang a song about the star of Bethlehem.

Karen:     So, you had a theme.

David:     I had a hard time not crying. Because it was wonderful. The main presentation was something. But then this was, I guess, it was the innocence of the mother and the daughter in the star of Bethlehem.

Karen:     They weren’t performing as much as they were amplifying what had been preaching. It was sort of a visual presentation because he was talking about the star of Bethlehem.

David:     But just that connection. And that service was so powerful as opposed to hearing the sermon. And then singing maybe four or five songs. And none of them connecting with what the sermon was. Which is the experience of people all across the country week after week after week in a lot of our churches. So, how do we take what we’re saying and we’re trying to in some way say to people, “Can we get to the place where we can work together more and there can be elements that seem to fit as opposed to elements that are all individualized piecemeal?”

I guess it comes back to that how do we get for me? It’s in a sentence because that’s the easiest way. But we say we have to somehow figure out how to make this a unified whole as opposed to again just segments.

Karen:     This is an imperative discipline for people who plan sermons and worship services. They think they’re going to have any kind of impact or influence in the daily moment by moment lives of the listeners. It is worthwhile doing this kind of work to get that retention where the seed falls into the good ground and is able to grow and bear fruit. So, this is why this is so important. Okay, let’s say that the people who are listening to us don’t have any role in the service planning. And that often happens for lay people.

So, your responsibility, as Jesus has taught in the scriptures that you brought up, is to take what you have, learn from that service, or the thing that lingers with you, and to meditate on it. To say to the Lord, “Is there something in here I need to hear? Is there more that you want to teach me? Is there disobedience in my life? Is there sin in my life?”

And then work with the meaning of that sermon as you go into your life outside the church or the worship service?

David:     Yeah, in fact, I do this often when I leave a service. I say, “Let’s see if I can get into a sentence what it is these people were working on and what other elements might have been something that could be put into a service like that, and would it have been more powerful?” I don’t know whether the average person listening to us, I don’t know what they’re thinking now.

Karen:     Well, most of the people listening to us listen to sermons. They’re going to have some relationship to it and perhaps application for it. So, what are we saying? What is the sentence that we’re working with?

David:     It is a great help to everyone when the person preaching puts the thrust of his or her sermon into a single sentence. You know what, I think when I die, they’re going to say, “Mains is gone, but for his sake and you’ll feel good about it, let’s put in a single sentence on that tombstone. What it is he was trying to say, all his little life.

I’m done.

Karen:     Okay.

David:     Well, done.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.