David:     I am a recovering workaholic. I’m not proud of that. I don’t see workaholism as something good.

Karen:     So, when you and I began this Before We Go Podcast, we knew that we didn’t want David at age 83, to fall back into negative patterns of getting into something over his head.

David:     So, we told ourselves we would do one podcast a week and attempt to make that given one really count, but that was enough.

Karen:     But now for a limited time, because of the pandemic that’s going on in our country, we’ve agreed together to do two a week. But this is the exception. I promise you, it’s not the rule.

David:     Good.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Okay, Karen, there’s a reason, I’ll get to that in just a minute, as to why we thought we would do two a week. We’ve been now living in the house, not going out except to the yard for about what, a little over two and a half weeks I would guess.

Karen:     It’s 15 or 16 days. We’ve been really a good boy and girl. Partly because our children are just watching us like hawks. Phone calls every half hour from one of them. Are you going out? Are you being good? Yeah, we haven’t gone out. We’re being good. Are you washing your hands? Yes, we’re washing our hands.

David:     It means they love us.

Karen:     They do love us.

David:     And I’m grateful for that. How are we doing?

Karen:     We’re doing well, I think. You and I fortunately enjoy being with each other. Our house is large, so your study is at one end of the upstairs and mine is at the other end of the upstairs. And we’ve actually learned to live that way, but it’s just the isolation, not seeing anyone else or going anywhere and not having meetings scheduled with people. That’s been very different. But I think we’re doing well with it.

David:     Yeah, we should add that we have two very friendly cats.

Karen:     Yes, they’ve helped.

David:     They get along with each other. They’re sisters and they get along with us as well.

Karen:     And you love it when they plunk on your desk and curl up and we move all your little knick-knacks over the edge.

David:     They knock them over.

Karen:     What can you say?

David:     I haven’t taught them to speak English yet, so it’s hard to communicate. But I can’t get mad at them. One of the dilemmas for me this week was you said you needed a haircut and then you informed me that I was the one to give you the haircut.

Karen:     Well, I had actually done the front part by myself.

David:     It looks pretty good.

Karen:     It’s not bad. But I did need you to get to the parts in the back, around the neck, like that. I couldn’t manage myself.

David:     It was intimidating to actually cut your hair.

Karen:     It’ll grow. My grandmother’s little phrase about the difference between a good haircut and a bad haircut. Do you know what it is?

David:     Yeah, I’ve heard you say it before.

Karen:     Two weeks.

David:     For me, it’s about three and a half weeks. I report that our second Zoom call with the family went very well.

Karen:     It was fun. It was so great to see everyone. We’re scattered all over the country as an extended family. So, I’m just learning to master the Zoom call myself. I worked on it again this morning just to see if I could operate it.

David:     You’ve been talking to Joel. Joel is our third child, second son, and he’s the one who won. How many?

Karen:     He won five Emmys. He was a film student. He worked for documentaries that he had done.

David:     So, he calls and says, this is a good film. I think you would like, Mom.

Karen:     Yeah. So, we’re looking for films that uphold goodness, truth, and beauty. This is not the general run of what comes out of the film industry. But we found two that we agree on are really excellent films that are excellent because they’re film craft. Their narrative arc is done. One of them was even a message film, but you didn’t know it. So that’s a good sign. It was good work, good creative work. So, he and I are making a list of these good and truthful and beautiful films so that we can, I don’t know what, share it with one another, but it’s nice to agree with him on film work.

David:     What’s a message film? I didn’t understand that.

Karen:     Well, it’s where they’ve got a message they want to get across. They’re not just telling a story. And it becomes very obvious as you get into the film. They’re really what we call propaganda pieces. The message needs to grow out of the meaning of the script. It can’t be something that’s imposed on the script, and then the script is built around the message. I mean, there are a lot of films that are like that, but they’re not good film craft as far as someone who’s studying film and won five Emmys for his work.

David:     Something that’s changed with me. I’ve noticed this. It’s a little embarrassing to me. I’m emotionally feeling what’s going on. I think it’s because as a minister, you do funerals. Funerals are very hard on people. They can be glorious times of victory, but still they’re incredibly difficult. And all these reports were people, you know, they’re dying alone. Their loved ones can’t be with them. And then the people isolated around the country, they can’t travel.

Karen:     To get to their aging parents, for instance. Yeah, it’s very hard.

David:     I find myself, I tried to tell you the other day, when the ships came into New York or the ship.

Karen:     Comfort ship into New York Harbor.

David:     It touched me deeply what the captain of that ship…

Karen:     …the commander of the ship, Commodore, I guess he is.

David:     I just found myself not able to talk to you about it. So anyway, the reason why we’re doing two a week instead of one a week, you want me to explain it, or…

Karen:     Why don’t you explain it.

David:     I went back into my past history. And 25 years ago, I did a series of eight messages at Wheaton College.

Karen:     For the spiritual life week. It’s a special week set aside, I think in the spring or is it in the fall? I don’t remember now.

David:     It was in the spring, early spring.

Karen:     Every year they do this. And they always have someone come in and teach those sessions.

David:     And I was going through just an incredibly difficult time. And I did these eight sermons out of pain in my own life because my world was falling apart. In fact, even now, I found that they were meaningful to me. I weren’t sure they were all that meaningful. In fact, in the middle of that series are quite close to the start of it. I thought I’m bringing a message to these people that they’re not into.

Karen:     College kids mostly.

David:     Yes. I tried to adapt them. But anyway, I went back. No one recorded those as far as I know. And they were too long to use on our broadcast. We had like 12 minutes, a little bit more than that to speak on the broadcasts, plus the opening and closing. And so I knew that they weren’t available just to replay. I think I did use parts. I sometimes ministers, you use part of a sermon and another sermon. I remember doing that. But I went back, and I went through those notes, and I found that they were very meaningful. And I said to you, “Karen, these things seem to be very appropriate for what people are going to be going through in our country.”

Karen:     Well, it’s almost as though they were written all those years ago for today. We did make them into a booklet and the booklet is titled…

David:     When Life Becomes a Maze.

Karen:     When Life Becomes a Maze. But the topic you were speaking on, is what to do when you don’t know what to do, right?

David:     That was an adventure we later did. Yes, that’s correct. But that book sought a print.

Karen:      Yeah.

David:     So anyway, I read them, I showed them to you, and you said, those are just right on for what we’re going through. And I said…

Karen:     … as a nation, it’s a whole community of people.

David:      I’ll use them on the podcast.

Karen:      Okay.

David:      And that’s why we said let’s do two a week instead of just one.

Karen:     So, we’re saying to our listeners, if you feel like you don’t know what to do when you don’t know what to do.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     These have been brought by the Lord out of the past out of a time in our lives and we really didn’t know what to do. We were going through extraordinary distress and lost our ministry eventually.

David:     Yes.

Karen:     So, out of that time of terror and trouble and trauma in our lives, these messages were formed by God and we feel like they were meant for a time such as these days are. Listen up.

David:     Maze Ville. People don’t go to Maze Ville on purpose. At least if they have any sense, they don’t. They usually end up there by accident. That’s what happened to two lost hikers. Rain was pouring down so hard they couldn’t see well enough to get to their intended destination. Finding a shelter in the storm, they sat down until daybreak, but they were weary. So, they both fell asleep. What they didn’t know was that they had wandered onto the grounds of a giant. Unfortunately, the next morning, when the huge owner made his rounds, he found them and took both captive. They politely explained that they were on a journey and were lost, but that didn’t make any difference. Because of his size, the travelers were afraid to quarrel with their captor.

Now, I’m reading from the script, or I probably should say the book. The giant, therefore, drove them before him and put them into his castle in a very dark dungeon, nasty and stinking to the spirits of these two men. Here then they lay from Wednesday morning till Saturday night without one bit of bread or drop of drink or light or any to ask how they did. They were, therefore, here in evil case and were far from friends and acquaintances.

Well, what might sound like an old Muppet show script is really a Christian classic. First printed in 1678, Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan is still revered by people of the church. The story continues after the giant’s wife advised him to beat these trespassers without mercy.

Back to the book. So, when he arose, he giveth him a grievous crab tree cudgel and goes down into the dungeon to them and their first false to rating of them as if they were dogs, although they never gave him a word of distaste. Then he fell upon them and beat them tearfully in such short that they were not able to help themselves or to turn them upon the floor. This done, he withdraws and leaves them there to condole their misery and to mourn under the distress. So, all that day they spent their time in nothing but sighs and bitter lamentations.

Intent on getting to the celestial city these travelers had unwittingly found their way into a literal giant maze that seemed to have no exits. Left alone the companions discussed their options. The discouraged one named Christian cried, “the grave is more easy for me than this dungeon.”

Hopeful, his companion, responded in a manner consistent with his name. “Who knows but that God who made the world may cause the giant Despair may die. Or that at some time or other he may forget to lock us in. Or that he may in a short time have another of his fits before us and may lose the use of his limbs. And if ever that should come to pass again from my part, I’m resolved to pluck up the heart of a man and try my utmost to get from under his hand.”

Later giant Despair returned and took them to his castle yard and showed them scattered bones and skulls. “These”, he said, “were pilgrims as you are once, and they trespassed on my ground. As you have done and when I thought fit, I tore them to pieces and so within ten days I will do you.”

Discouragement. How often it way lays spiritual pilgrims when they’re trapped in a no-win situation. Bend his may, to think that we started on this path that seems so pleasant. Hopelessness, no one cares. Why should we continue? Nobody asks anymore how we’re doing. Despondency. What difference does it make? Nothing seems worth the effort when life is filled with such bitterness. Yes, old giant Despair still stalks these parts. He’s such a big fella you would think pilgrims would see him coming and run but that’s not always the case. Sometimes despair gets you before you know it.

Bunyan’s book has remained popular mainly because so many believers relate to the experiences of characters like Christian and Hopeful. They know what it’s like to be exhausted from traveling hard following the leading of the Lord. Many also identify with the story about some awful night when they lost direction, sat down under a strange shelter, and fell asleep where they shouldn’t have. Unfortunately, the old giant was out roaming his acres the next morning and “with a grim and surly voice he bid them awake.”

Once captured by giant Despair it’s extremely difficult to get free by yourself. Just because you tell depression, “Leave me alone” doesn’t mean it will. You may not have the strength to keep asking or searching for ways to escape your dungeon. You need a hopeful to encourage you to step in and do something if need be. Maybe I should pause and ask whether you brought any discouragement with you into this maze of yours. Did someone tell you that you weren’t needed? Or you didn’t fit? Or did a certain gruff individual treat you like a dog? Do you have someone on your side to counteract those falsehoods?

Back to the book. Well, on Saturday about midnight, they began to pray and continued in prayer till almost the break of day. Now a little before it was day, good Christian as one half amazed break out into this passionate speech, “What a fool am I. Thus, to lie in a stinking dungeon when I may as well walk at liberty, I have a key in my bosom called promise that well I’m persuaded open any lock in doubting castle.” Then said Hopeful, “That’s good news good brother pluck it out thy bosom and try.”

Promise is a good word to convey what Christians suddenly rediscovered. In the context of what I’ve been saying, he returned to being an “I believe” person. He embraced a great truth of scripture and with this Promise tried the dungeon door. When you know the book gave way as he turned the key it looked open with ease and Christian and Hopeful both came out.

The book again. After that he went to the iron gate, for that must be open too. But that lock was desperately hard. Yet the key did open it, and they thrust open the gate to make their escape with speed. But that gate, as it opened, made such a creaking that it waked giant Despair, who hastily, rising to pursue his prisoners, felt his limbs to fail, for his fits took him again, so they could by no means go after them. And they went on and came to the King’s highway again, and so were safe, because they were out of his jurisdiction. The two pilgrims escaped from Despair; a feat that might not have been accomplished if Christian had been traveling without Hopeful.

You see, finding one’s way out of a maze is usually easier for two than it is for one. Scripture concurs with Bunyan on this. Ecclesiastes 4:9-10, and then verse 12 reads, “Two are better than one. If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up. Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A quarter-three strands is not quickly broken.”

Here’s another provocative answer to the question of what to do when you don’t know what to do. Work at building a support relationship with someone who loves the Lord. Say it again. Work at building a support relationship with someone who loves the Lord. Proverbs 17:17 tells us, “A friend loves at all times; and a brother is born for adversity.

In the next chapter, Proverbs 18:24, is added these words, “A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.”

A beautiful Old Testament example of the kind of friendship where one sticks closer than a brother is seen in the relationship between Jonathan and David. David, is God’s anointed, king in waiting. And though he was a prince, Jonathan was loyal to David in every way.

Reading from Scripture. And so, son Jonathan went to David at Horesh and helped him find strength in God. “Don’t be afraid”, he said. “My father Saul will not lay a hand on you. You will be king over Israel, and I will be second to you. Even my father Saul knows this.” How’s that for an example of a friend who sticks closer than a brother? Jonathan was certainly one born to be there for David, offering him hope even in a terrible time of adversity.

The exact opposite of this scene is portrayed in the children’s film The Lion King. It grossed over $300 million at the box office. One lesson young watchers hopefully learn is that when things go wrong, you shouldn’t withdraw from your friends. Remember how young Prince Simba was told to lie by his evil uncle Scar? Because of this lie, the young lion assumed it was his fault that his father Mufasa died. Simba ran away from the lion pride. Certainly, his young lioness friend Nala could have helped him think through what went on, but Simba leaves without even talking to her. He withdraws to a distant place.

Eventually he makes new friends, but what’s a future king of the jungle doing running around with a warthog, Pumbaa, and a meerkat, Timon, whose joint life philosophy is expressed in the song Hakuna Matata. No worries for the rest of our days. Not the best of advice, is it? But don’t Christians sometimes face tough problems by withdrawing from everyone, including the people of the king? They forfeit their unique heritage because they failed a hold to the close Christian friendships that are needed. It’s as if they dropped their royal relationships in favor of no-worry warthogs and meerkats.

Three young men, a long way from home in another land, also could have formed the wrong kind of friendships if they hadn’t been careful. The new surroundings in Babylon were mesmerizing. This was giant territory of a different sort. 90 feet high, 9 feet wide. That’s how big the gold statue was that King Nebuchadnezzar had made of himself. His decree was that when the royal musicians began playing, everyone was to bow. Separated from each other, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego might have capitulated. As a threesome, however, they were not to be intimidated. Again, when stuck in the maze-velles of Babylon or other countries, it’s wise to pursue support relationships with other believers. The thought might sound, well, not all that profound. But it is.

Can you name some friends you would quickly go to when trouble surfaces? I’m not talking about people you would like to speak with if you could make an appointment, but those you could easily ask for help because a relationship has been built over a period of time. One of the great benefits of close Christian friendships is that together you can go to the true King with your problems. That was what Christian and Hopeful did on that Saturday at midnight. They began to pray and continued until almost the break of day. Tremendous spiritual power is unleashed when two believers go to the Lord in prayer. It was the Son of God who said in Matthew 18:18-20, “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

A lesson I’m learning from brothers and sisters in third world countries is that they have a deeper belief in the efficacy of prayer than I think I do. I can use Christian and Hopeful as a sermon illustration, but I don’t know all that much about praying from midnight through the early morning hours like they did. In India however, all night prayer meetings are common. In the third world the church has limited resources, but it is learned to compensate by becoming more dependent on the Lord. A great percentage of Indian believers are comfortable with the New Testament lifestyle in which praying without ceasing is just the normal way to live.

For instance, I recall an incident I used to laugh about, now it kind of makes me embarrassed. But on one of my trips to India I went to the studios of Gospel for Asia to record a radio broadcast with two of my associates traveling with me. From past instances I was aware of how difficult it is to capture in a short quarter-hour program the diverse cultural experiences you’ve been taking in, and I wanted my listeners to be able to see what I was seeing and to be encouraged by some of the obvious work of the Holy Spirit taking place under the leadership of the Indian Church. So, the three of us sat at a table and in the recording room we talked together about what we would say and how it would fit it all into that short amount of airtime we had. I nodded to the Indian engineer behind the glass, and he smiled back. We proceeded with the recording, and it went absolutely beautifully.

For people who are not acquainted with the difficulties of an unscripted three-man discussion you might not be able to appreciate how difficult that is. “Great job you do!” I said, “Praise the Lord, He really helped us.” Then I addressed the engineer who had been watching everything intently. Thanks for your help I told him. “No problem.” He responded in the beautiful English. These people learned from the British who ruled them for so many years. Now we pray, then we record. I looked at my fellow workers. Could it be true that what we felt so good about hadn’t been taped? Ah, the engineer was still smiling. “First, we pray then we record.” He said again. Apparently, this was an important routine he had been taught. He wasn’t about to change it for just any visiting minister. “First we pray and then we record.” There would have been no exceptions. Yes, the comment was humorous now, but I also hear the words. This is a challenge from God. David you’re too busy. You’re foolishly rushing into things. How could you suppose that your early morning private minutes in prayer automatically covered the entire day? The reminder was a good one. Why hadn’t it seemed natural to us as Christian friends and fellow workers to pray together before recording?

Coming back to our Western culture I would say that setting up a short-term prayer partnership with someone would be a good way to learn about the value of Christian support relationships. It’s a relatively easy thing to do and the benefits far outweigh any slight intimidation you might feel. So, who is someone you might ask to do that with you? Could you meet once a week for eight or ten times? If you have never known the experience of praying with someone else, what a treat is in store for you.

The second-best time to initiate such a practice is when you’re struggling to get out of a maze. Are the problems you face big enough that you’re not quite sure how to act or what to do? An obvious suggestion of what to do is to pray, but don’t pray on your own. Instead develop a relationship with someone who will consistently meet with you for prayer, because it’s much better that way. Sometimes I think the Lord actually allows us to get into situations over our heads to almost force us to grab hold of others for support. It’s as if He’s telling us, there’s a reason I sent my disciples out two by two, especially when they were assigned places of ministry like Maze Ville.

Over the years I have found involvement in prayer partnerships to be one of my greatest sources of strength. I have prayed with friends who have been struggling to find their way. I’ve also been the recipient of similar prayers. I can remember driving away from prayer times wondering how others who don’t have prayer partners to stand with them make it through life.

I’m convinced that the best time to consider experimenting with a prayer partnership is when all is going well. Then you have opportunities to spend time praising God for His goodness. You can learn a great deal about praying with a friend if you don’t have to hit the road running, so to speak. The pressure isn’t there to expect God to perform an incredible miracle between meeting one and meeting two. It’s also helpful to make a distinction between going to someone for prayer support and meeting with someone for counseling. When the initial meetings are problem oriented, there’s always the temptation for more time to be spent in sharing advice than in prayer.

The purpose of prayer times is to present your problems to the Lord with a friend by your side acting as an intercessor for you. Well, I’m coming to the close. I’d like to quote from a book I co-authored with Steve Bell, my brother-in-law, called Two Are Better Than One. I think it says it well.

Within a short time after entering a prayer partnership, normally he will see improvement in your private time with the Lord. Spending time with someone else in the presence of God enhances personal times with him. You become practiced and more comfortable in his presence. Talking with the Lord about specific issues in your life no longer seems so abstract. On top of that, many have testified that the promises of Scripture come alive to them in a whole new way when they pray with someone else. What had become the drudgery of doing basic spiritual disciplines has transformed into a new spiritual vitality. Finally, the church stands in great need of praying people, we wrote. Pastors want the prayer support of their members. Those in the congregation have all kinds of heartbreaking requests. Few outsiders come to Christ if nobody’s praying for them and spiritual awakenings always require a prayer base. A Christian and Hopeful needed each other. Apparently, Jonathan and David did also. The cord of three strands, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego was not quickly broken. Maybe you feel you can make it on your own. I don’t think I can. At least not while I’m here in Maze Ville.

Karen:     Well, that sets up the theme of this podcast in that we’re saying that you need to have supportive relationships in times of duress.

David:     And those relationships oftentimes can be occasions to pray together.

Karen:     Right! Very frequently they become that. So, through the years of my life, because of this podcast, I began to look back and say, well, what kind of supportive relationships have I had? And one of the things that we remember, we started in the past, at Circle Church, we planted that church in the middle of Chicago in 1967. And the women started growth groups. And that was three or four people per group. And our sole purpose was to hold one another accountable to spiritual growth. So, I think that was the first time I began to benefit from these supportive relationships. And we would go for, oh, I don’t remember how long it was for months. And then we would break the group apart and then launch another group. But it was for the purpose of holding one another accountable to and helping one another achieve spiritual growth.

And that was very powerful. There was something so bonding about each one of us having a chance to share what our lives were like and where we wanted to grow. And then having the group oldest accountable and they would say, well, did you get a phone call in the middle of the week? How’d your prayer time go this week? Or did you get in your Bible study or something like that?

David:     So, you were young woman then.

Karen:     We were all young women at that time. The average age of that church was 26 or 27 years of age. So then as I track back through this, then one of my experiences with accountability relationships or personal support relationships was I started a covenant group with it was five to six women, all of whom were involved in ministry in some way. In fact, two of them became ordained during the time that we were having this covenant group on and went on for 17 years. I can’t remember how frequently I met, but I know we had to do calendar work for every single meeting because we were all traveling and speaking or, you know, doing stuff like that. So I think it was probably only once a month just because of that. And, you know, in time, people moved, and they took other jobs, other callings or their husbands were reassigned. And since that, and so we had the group dispersed, but I don’t know about a lot of groups that really have that kind of longevity, 17 years. So, I was sold on the effect, the positive effect of having a regular group with whom you meet and with whom you’d share your lives.

David:     You were not necessarily all of the same church either.

Karen:     Oh, well, none of us. I don’t think there were two people who were in the same church, but the none of the rest of us were. And sometimes these groups work really well for people who don’t even know one another. So, then I launched listening groups because I was intrigued with the power of what happens when you feel heard and understood. And we’ve talked about listening groups on the podcast before, but that was another sort of partnership. And those things were very, very powerful. Those people who were in that group, again, three to four people, we met once a month and we would go for seven months or so. Didn’t know one another. They had no connection with one another. They were totally strangers in some ways. That was a gift.

David:     And then they bonded.

Karen:     … and then they bonded very quickly. So, I am sold on this. Do you want me to tell what I’m involved in now? Do we have time for that?

David:     Sure, we do.

Karen:     I started to give courses on memoir writing because I discovered that it was a way for people to connect with one another that was not quite as overt as some of the other groups I had been in. I wanted to see what was happening and I got involved in the memoir writing form. And a lot of my writing is very much in a memoir writing out of my life. I have two or three books that would be considered spiritual memoirs. So, I started this up, offered it to our list and I have 14 people now who are part of the memoir class. So, I teach about memoir writing. This is the conference call.

David:     You said class, you mean classes. They’re in different classes. Not all 14 in one.

Karen:     No, we’ve broken them up almost in half, morning class and an evening class. We had our third meeting this morning with the morning group. And I was just amazed that in three phone calls, two weeks apart with them submitting their early memoir writing work and a little sharing of our backgrounds through the reading of our memoirs, we have gotten to know one another. It was very sweet. Two women in this morning’s meeting had been in New York during 911. And so, they both wrote about that. Now, can you imagine? I mean, this is just a random group.

David:     It’s a good spot.

Karen:     It does. And so, I’m into that supportive networking through the form of this class, learning how to write memoirs and then sharing the memoirs, the stories out of our own life with one another.

David:     So, somebody has never been in such a relationship. What are your words to that kind of person?

Karen:     Well, the statistics are now in our society that there’s a good 27% that is sort of trying to remember what it is. I don’t have it at the tip of my fingers right now. People who have no one they can go to. This is what makes me weep. The pain and the things that have caused that in anyone’s life, you know, failures or rejections or having a disability or a mental capacity that is different than the way most of society is and being ostracized. So, my heart really goes out. I’m touched by that statistic.

So, one of the things I would recommend to those folk, if they are alone, now because of the pandemic that’s sweeping our country and we’ve been told to isolate. But what is happening is there’s just a lot of stuff going online happening online and I, something came up on my screen as far as joining an online group. I clicked it and looked at all of the offerings. There were all kinds of interest level groups that people could join. You’d be meeting with strangers and that will be your support. That will become your support group.

David:     What if they say this person is not a believer too? You just don’t know.

Karen:     Well, you just let them be who they are and apologize for that to them. If you’re getting too churchy in your language or if they’re using terminology that they don’t understand. But the most important thing, if someone comes into your kind of closed group system, because we’re trying to include people and not exclude them, is to give them welcome. That is a gift. It’s a good gift of, is a gift of pure gold.

David:     You know, I went through that sermon, and I thought, is this really of any value? It’s of immense value, isn’t it?

Karen:     Right.

David:     Yeah, there need to be those relationships that are formed. It may not be David Jonathan, the first time you get together. But you find that you’re building something that is very beautiful.

Karen:     Well, the beautiful thing about the groups I’m involved with is we don’t know what one another look like. This is all voice work, and we don’t know what their rooms and their homes look like. And we don’t know what their kids look like if they have husbands or wives. Those people, we don’t even know their names. So, there is a kind of intimacy that develops just when we only have our voices that’s different than the other sort of stuff that goes on. We can’t read the subtext in their faces or see their grimaces when something is said, or we just hear the voice. It’s a very powerful thing.

David:     I’m in a group that meets every Wednesday by phone.

Karen:     And has for how many years?

David:     Oh, it’s probably three years, three or four years now. We come from diverse spectrums. So, they were not identical.

Karen:     No.

David:     But there has been a bond that has been formed. I love those people. There are five men and two women. I’ve learned so much about praying.

Karen:     I’ll say, how’d your group go? And you’ll say, “Oh, so good. We felt the presence of the Lord.” That’s generally what you say after that group.

David:     And those people, they’re from Texas, Ohio, California, Chicago, Michigan.

Karen:     You lies don’t cross in other places. This is where you meet.

David:     There have been some hard things that people in that group have gone through. But there is a bonding there.

Karen:     So, what are we saying? You usually reduce this to one sentence.

David:     And I did. It’s the importance of support groups. You don’t go it alone. And once those bonds are set, if at all possible, you make it a threesome by inviting Christ into that. So that’s, it’s a simple message, but it’s so significant. Karen, let me just insert that I have written out five different scripture passages with simple questions that people can get. They’re good from scripture to help people to get over that first step of “Where do I go”?

Karen:     Yeah, what do I do? How do I get there? Yeah. Okay, great. I mean, it’s wonderful. So, I’d like to pray for those who are isolated right now, who are feeling very alone in this pandemic isolationist just in Maze Ville,

David:     Maze Ville.

Karen:     … is a Maze Ville and its hit them in places where they’re vulnerable.

Lord, the truth is we are never alone. We may feel alone, but we are never alone. And that’s the exercise, the spiritual exercise. We all need to practice that you are present with us. You promise your presence to us. You promise your loving arms around us when we feel despair because perhaps we think no one cares about us. You care about us. You even say “cast your care upon you” because you care for us. So, I’m asking for those folks who are listening to us right now who feel isolated and alienated and the strictures of this pandemic across sweeping across our country are making that even more terrible for them. I’m asking for them in the supernatural way that you function in our lives for them to suddenly feel that there is a hand stretch out to them. It’s a spiritual hand. You’re saying to them, “I’m holding your hand. Hold on to me.” Or don’t feel like anyone has spoken words of beauty into their life. Help them to hear you say to them, “Peace, be still. I love you. You are beautiful in every way to me. You’re exactly what I want.” All of those things that through the years of our lives, the decades of our lives, we have had to learn to experience that choose to experience in moments when we were desperate and alone. So, I’m asking Father that you will surprise our listeners with your presence. Help them to hear and know and understand that you are near. Let it be a joy to them. Give them those words that come out of the mouths of others or something they read or something they see on the television that will make them feel like they are being held. We pray this Lord in your name.

David:     Your powerful name Lord.

Karen:     The name of Jesus. Amen.

David:     Amen.

Outgo:     You may obtain a copy of the handout mentioned in this podcast by pointing your web browser to the following link: www.grow.beforewego.show. That’s all-lowercase letters. GROW www.grow.beforewego.show SHOW.

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