David:       Hi, friend. I finished two books this past week. One was Rachel Maddow’s Blowout, 367 pages. I got through it. I feel like it helped me understand more about the sanctions our government has put on Russia. It’s not something I can do a whole lot about, but I did feel more informed, big picture-wise. As a writer, Rachel Maddow is able to help her readers see what’s going on and make sense out of it, even though it’s not the small world of one’s everyday life.

Karen:      Well, and the other thing is we try to read broadly. Read people whose opinions we might not think we were going to agree with; because I think that we’ve become so segmented in the way we think and who we listen to. We find the people who we agree with, who we agree with, so we try and read across a broad spectrum. So, you said you read two books, right? I hear you say you read two books this week. What was the other one you read?

David:       I’ll tell you in just a minute.

Intro:         Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains . Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:       A second book I read was by my wife, Karen.

Karen:      Yay! A plug for the family writer, right?

David:       Karen’s not in the same category as a Rachel Maddow, but Karen is a best-selling author. We’re talking like maybe two million books over her lifetime. This latest one she’s written is called “Medicine for Mouth Disease”, and it’s 145 pages, and it’s very personal. I didn’t cry when I read “Blow Out”, but there were two times when “Medicine for Mouth Disease” touched me pretty deeply. I would say that both books were quite timely. The subtitle to Karen’s book is “A Miracle Cure for Troublesome Tongue.” Karen, would you agree that troublesome tongues would be a timely topic?

Karen:      Well, I think troublesome tongues are a timely topic for any age. But because of our national discourse now, because we have 24/7, isn’t that the phrase 24/7?

David:       Right.

Karen:      All day, every day, every week, news coverage, we just continually are being blasted with mostly negative news. And partly I think that’s because negative news causes attention, the headlines, negative headlines, get readers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is an economic decision as much as it is a producer’s decision, you know, from the top, saying we need to be fair; we need to be open-minded; we need to present both sides as fairly as we can. And so, what we do is we get reduced to, in this day and age, a discourse that is a lot like the playground, and that’s been noted by many analysts.

David:       What do you mean when you say a lot like the playground?

Karen:      We’re calling names. You are too. So, what am I? You know that sort of stuff is just extraordinary. I know that there have been times in the past when our national discourse in America has been heated in trivial and childish. But I think it’s amplified because of the news media today, concentration on these things. I so long for, I often say this to you, “Oh come on, tell us something that’s good. Tell us some of the things that are good that our people are doing.” Because we know that a lot of that is going on. It just never gets covered.

David:       Karen, you’re pretty much tagged as a religious writer.

Karen:      Well, I am a religious writer.

David:       Is this book that you have done, maybe, does it have crossover appeal?

Karen:      It might have crossover appeal for people who are open to Judeo-Christian heritage because throughout all of the Old and New Testament, we are warned about the way we use our words. And one of the scriptures that hit me as I was rereading scriptures as far as its emphasis on using words well, using words in a holy way, using words in an uplifting way was this phrase: “God hates a malicious tongue.” Well, if there was ever a generation where there were malicious tongues, you know, speaking widely, broadly, and constantly, it would certainly be this generation. So, I think that the book has power. It has power in reminding anyone, no matter where you’re coming from, faith-based or non-faith-based, of that very fact that there are power in words. Power for good. Power for what can heal and uplift. And power to destroy. Power to create an environment where there is disease and distress because of this discourse, because of this negative discourse.

David:       Ok, Karen, let’s get more specific. Give me an example of a mouth disease problem.

Karen:      Well, let me ask our listeners: “Who did you talk about today? That you were downgrading them, that you were coming close to slandering them, or you were griping about them. Did you say to your wife something nasty or to a child going out the door, if it’s a school day or they’re going to play, something really mean.” I mean, I think that we do this so frequently without self-examination that the danger of this is that we begin to create an environment of meanness.

David:       So, this isn’t necessarily just a political figure that you said something nasty about. Could be someone who’s in the family.

Karen:      Oh, generally. I mean when you talk to people…

David:       Is somebody at work?

Karen:      Someone at work.

David:       Church?

Karen:      When you talk to people who are raised in abusive family backgrounds, and I’m wondering how many of our listeners could say, “Yeah, I came from that background. I came from that kind of background.” It’s not just physical abuse. I mean, the most deadly kind of abuse is the constant vitriol that children have to listen to daily from their parents. “You, dumb head. You, stupid. You never do anything right.” I mean, just… You might as well just take a two by four and hit them in the head or hit them in the soul. Maybe that’s a better picture because that’s the kind of damage that happens with that kind of verbiage.

David:       Okay. You’re talking about the problem still. Let’s… You say it’s a miracle cure.

Karen:      Yeah.

David:       The title of the book, “Medicine for Mouth Disease.” It’s subtitled, “A Miracle Cure for Troublesome Tongues.” Karen Burton Mains.

Karen:      And this can be acquired through amazon.com.

David:       Good. Let’s talk about some of the cures that you write about.

Karen:      Well, for me, a truth telling aspect where you look at yourself and say, “Okay, how do I use words? How do I really use words?” Some of this is “How did I…” Part of the self-examination is “What kind of environment was I raised in and what did it teach me about using words”? And to just take a piece of paper, I mean, we’re getting real, basic here. So, I’m suggesting this to the readers to say, whoops, they’re in my category here. You’re fiddling around with me.

David:       Well, you’re talking a very large percentage of people.

Karen:      A large percentage.

David:       As soon as you say, mouth is everybody’s…

Karen:      It says whoops, I think I…

David:       Yeah. I don’t know if I want to read that or not.

Karen:      Yeah. Take a piece of paper, put the date at the top of the day. And then when you misuse your mouth, when you say things that are lying, lies; when you say things that are downgrading other people; when you are nasty or sarcastic, then you just make a little mark in that page, and you track how much you misuse your tongue. Now, I’ve done this to myself. I mean, I realized I had mouth disease, raging mouth disease. And so, I started to record the nasty things I would say over a day and think, “Oh, this is not the kind of person I want to be.” And as a Christian who believes in the power of Scripture to teach us to be moral people and point out when we are immoral, that was a very powerful journey for me.

David:       I would say just to emphasize your words that you get quite personal in what you write. It’s almost like you say, “I know a whole lot about this topic because Tamie in the Tug has been an ongoing topic for me.” Is that fair?

Karen:      Oh, yes. Now, let me give one other diagnostic tool. You’re in a party. Okay. Have the listeners think about what last social gathering they were in. It can be a work gathering. It can be a neighborhood coffee clutch. It can be the birthday party of the family where everyone is gathered. And you come home, and you think back on that event, and you think, “Oh, my gosh, did I say what I said. Oh, I wish I hadn’t said that.” And you’re just filled with shame. I mean, this is a gift. This is a gift that we need to be paying attention to.

David:       What’s a gift?

Karen:      The feeling of shame.

David:       Okay.

Karen:      Embarrassment that I would talk too much. I mean, it went on and on and on. I talked about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. You know, all of these things we come back from these social gatherings. Now, those are, those are inter-diagnostic tools that have been given to us to pay attention to so that we can correct the way we use our tongue. And then we began to come up with methods to cure this. And for me, I sat down and took the book of Proverbs, which is, it’s just all kinds, chapters of little pithy sayings. And I wrote down every single thing that had to do with the tongue.

You know. And I have a whole list of that, the whole list that I wrote down that I’ve included in the back of “Medicine for Mouth Disease”, the book, to help people just go through that and use that as a diagnostic help; and a cure help, the words of the wise heal. Well, that’s one I want to be. I want to be a wise person. So that the words I use bring tenderness or kindness or compassion or empathy. Anyway, I would suggest if people have problems with their tongues, that they begin to get the book would be happy to fulfill an order. If you want to get one from us, we work with Amazon.com and send our products out over Amazon.com.  This podcast is titled Before We Go. How old are you?

David:       Well, I’m 83.

Karen:      And I’m 76. So, we have lived long lives. We’ve had a lot of experience in our lives, and we have a lot to share. And one of the things I really want to share, particularly in this age, is the fact that the tongues can be murderous and yet there is a cure. There is a healthy cure for troublesome tongues, “Medicine for Mouth Disease.”

David:       Okay, I found the book as I read it. It was not negative. It didn’t make me feel like I wanted to crawl under a rug. It made me feel like I have made a lot of progress in my life. At the same time, my tongue gets out of control on occasion. I think the society in which we’re living makes it very easy to say things that you wish you hadn’t said. Makes you feel good when you say, “I didn’t say what sometimes I have said.” So, it’s very good. And it brought the scriptures alive in a very special way. I have known religious leaders who have written on given topics. I’m thinking specifically of a religious leader who wrote about losing weight, put in the context of even sin, gluttony, whatever. And had pictures of himself or herself and looking really trim. And then two years later, you see that same person and you think, “Wow, it was only a temporary fix because now they’re just like they used to be.” Are you possibly in a situation where two years from now when you’re not thinking about all these verses, somebody’s going to say, “Well, that lady still has a problem with her tongue.”

Karen:      Well, tongue problems, you know, we have to be vigilant about it for all of our lives. But I would say that on the whole, in comparison to how I was when I was younger: judgmental, negative verbally, I could use humor in deadly ways. I mean, it can be very, very funny, but it can be harmful. Humor can convey as much negativity as some of the words we say directly that are negative. I would say over the projection of these years, I’m doing much, much better. And partly it’s because I don’t feed that negative tongue pattern. You feed it and it grows. If you are trying to be vigilant and correct it, it doesn’t have as much power in your life to grow. So, but how do you think I’m doing? I mean, you have to live with me.

David:       I would say that you are… I’ve known you over a lot of years.

Karen:      58 at this point and counting.

David:       You’re doing very well. It’s also true that you continue to work at this all the time. You say, “I don’t want to watch that program anymore because they are not careful in the way they use their tongue. I kind of like this person because I see a carefulness.” And I don’t…

Karen:      You mean a media person. They’re much more fair. Yeah.

David:       Yeah, there’s actually an attempt to be fair. It doesn’t mean that you can’t say something critical about a person, but it means that you’re careful in how you say those words.

Karen:      One of the results that I’m thinking about right now, I don’t know how this actually functions, how it goes hand in hand in some way, is that when we control our tongue, and I do think this is a gift that comes to us through the power of the Holy Spirit. In the Christian context, we believe that the Holy Spirit helps us to become holy. And you get these little nags. I call them the holy nag on the inside.

David:       So, your conscience bothers you.

Karen:      Oh, that’s a good way to put it, conscious bothering you. And you pay attention to them, and it decreases the bad verbiage. There seems to be a commensurate kind of tenderness and lovingness that develops. I mean, people I would normally have reacted negatively to, at this stage in my life, I have a tenderness toward and a willingness to see their value. So, I think that this kind of goes hand in hand.

If you can control your tongue, if you can cure the mouth disease, if you can take the remedies regularly, that will help you become a verbally positive person. I think that alongside that, then there grows this vision of the people in the world that has the same kind of tenderness brought to us. So, I’m much more of a loving and accepting person than I was when I went into all that verbal judgment.

David:       A judgment is a good word. A lot of people, there isn’t the sense of I’m being very judgmental in what I’m saying. I would commend you. One is that I think you’re very honest as you write. You don’t talk down to people in your writing about problems with the tongue. And I would also say that you are… In terms of what you’re writing, you are wanting to be helpful and not just say, “Okay, this is sin, stop it. Gossip is not a good thing. Profanity is not a helpful pattern.”

Karen:      Can we play that all together? It’s an easy one to avoid.

David:       But I would say that people will relate to what you have written in “Medicine for Mouth Disease.” I’m just thinking how difficult it is to get a person to read on this topic. It’s like the person who says, “I’m going to preach a series of sermons on lust.” Well, maybe the women think, good, but the men are all thinking…

Karen:      Oh dear.

David:       How can I skip church for a couple of weeks? Maybe I should work in the nursery or whatever. So, this is one of those very common human problems. So, it’s not something that a person would normally pick up. So how do you get people to read a book like this?

Karen:      Well, let’s start with that self-examination. All human growth starts with an honest look at ourselves. So, do you relish the diatribe that comes over your television set? I mean, we listened to something last night. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. It was just a gossip fest. These were national commentators. So, I think we said, “Well, this is enough of this.” And we turned it off. So, it’s that self-examination that says, what’s the proof of the pudding here? What am I watching? What do I delight in when I watch? What kinds of conversations am I having with my closest friends? What are the end of the day verbal sessions? What was your day like as a common question we ask one another when we haven’t seen one another? Tell me about your day. And then there comes this vomit, this verbal vomit. Is that maybe that’s going to happen once in a while. But if it happens all the time, what is wrong here? You have a totally negative cast on what’s going on. Of course, many people are in a bad situation. But how do we make it positive? How do our words make it positive? How can I speak holy righteousness, holy goodness into that environment that has become so negative at work? So, the self-examination where we look and listen to our own tongues, the checklist that I suggested. Take the book that I’ve written and go through it. I mean, it’s a very honest appraisal where I have been with this struggle. So, I try to be very authentic in everything I write. And see if it helps you, if see if it helps persuade you, see if it gives you the tools that you need to use in order to become a much better tongue person.

David:       Can you give us just a couple of what those tools are as teasers so a person says, “Yeah, I think I could read that and not just feel terribly guilty”?

Karen:      Well, I’ve set up a whole section on the lies we tell. Many of us know what lies we’re telling. It’s the thing we get. You know, you really told a lie there that wasn’t really true. You colored it to make yourself look better, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We’re in touch of the lies we tell. Now, what we do with that or not is up to us as well. We have to decide that the lies we know we’re telling, we’re not going to tell anymore. But there’s a whole other section, David, as far as untruth. It’s the lies we don’t know we’re telling. The lies we don’t know we’re telling. That’s a whole level of subjectiveness that exists within us that we’re not in touch with.

David:       Be more specific.

Karen:      Well, there’s a whole section that the psychological community exists to help us get in touch with. They’re called lacunas or hidden areas in ourselves that we don’t even know that are there. And yet the areas in our psyche, in our psychological makeup, in our emotional situation that hinders us from growth because we’re hanging on to this. We might say my parents were the most negative people on earth. They were the most terrible people on earth. We say that, but it’s not really true. It’s what we feel about them, but it’s not really true. They were consistently adequate parents. That’s often a judge, a way by which we determine whether we’ve been decent parents or not. They just rubbed you in a way that made you feel like they were the worst parents on earth. And you’ve grabbed onto that lie. and you’ve incorporated into your essence and into your growth. It’s a lacuna. It’s a hidden lie that you don’t even know that you’re saying. But when you examine the truth…

David:       …but you bought into it,

Karen:      …but you bought into it because it makes you feel justified. But when you truthfully examine, they were the perfect parents. No, they weren’t perfect parents. And when we understand where our parents often came from, what kind of backgrounds they had, then we have sometimes more tenderness up toward them. Have you done that work yourself to say, “Well, this is where my dad and mother were raised or my single parent. Maybe only had a single parent.” And then we began to see that they worked two jobs to put food on the table. They came home tired and grumpy. And we’re not always the most pleasant people to be around. But there was a reason for that. That they kept us in school. They, you know, but that right out a list of all the things they did that was good. That gave you the gifts that have made you functional. And you will see a totally different story than the one that you’ve been saying, “My parents were terrible parents.” So that’s where that hidden lie, the lie we’re telling that we don’t know are hidden, begins to raise itself up and demonstrate what it is, what the truth is. That takes work. That’s the inner work we have to do to get in touch with the lies we don’t know that we’re telling. And sometimes we do need skilled people, psychological counselors or spiritual counselors or just a friend who’s really honest and cares about us who will help us get to those areas of untruth that are hidden.

David:       I found that the book I read by Rachel Maddow was such that I read it and it was helpful and it was information to me that I didn’t know about the whole petroleum industry and different figures I hear in the news and such that was beneficial. When I read your book on “Medicine for Mouth Disease”, I was constantly reexamining myself. And yeah, it was. And I was also being encouraged. I felt like you were leading me along, but you were not scolding me. You were basically saying “This is a common problem. Look at yourself.”

Karen:      Let’s be honest here.

David:       Yeah. Read a chapter and then just kind of think about it and see what the Holy Spirit is telling you. I didn’t feel condemned, but I felt challenged. Does that make you feel good?

Karen:      Yeah, it does. It makes me feel good as a writer because one of the things you want to do when you’re writing anything is to always keep in contact with whoever’s going to be reading your book. You never want to forget your reader. And a lot of these things we deal with that are errors or sins are very, very painful to deal with. So, we want to as communicators touch the lives of those people who are reading or listening to us like with this podcast; and do it with the most tenderness and the most tender kind of way because that’s rough, rough work for all of us to enter into. But we do have this element of the Holy Spirit that gently keeps bringing things back to mind that we need to pay attention to and then when we don’t pay attention to, he gets a little more rough with us, you know, because then we have things where we say, “Well I should have taken care of that before because we run into a problem that’s really, really embarrassing that we have set into motion.” So good. I’m glad that you felt that way about the book.

David:       The title of the book, “Medicine for Mouth Disease”, a subtitle, “A Miracle Cure for Troublesome Tongues.” Karen Burton Mains .

Karen:      And this can be acquired through Amazon.com.

David:       Good. I feel about this conversation that I’ve poked at what the book is about, but I haven’t said everything that I’d like and I don’t think you’ve said everything that you’d like. So, I’d like to talk about it again.

Karen:      Okay. So, the next podcast. I’m going to be here.

David:       One more time we’ll go at it. And because a good book is a great friend. It’s like someone has talked with you on a very personal level and you’re grateful and it’s something you want to share. So anyway, we’ll go at it again. Sounds like a deal.

Outgo:       You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2020 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60189.