David:     In our study of the book of Revelation, we have come to the section we’re calling the evil enemy masterminds. More specifically, Karen, that refers to whom?

Karen:     Well, that refers to the devil, the anti-Christ, and the false prophet. And text-wise, we’re now in chapters 12, 13, and 14 of the Book of Revelation.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     In Revelation chapter 12, the first and the worst of the three evil enemy masterminds is introduced. It’s an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Karen:     The chapter Revelation 12 begins this way. “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.”

David:     So, very quickly, we’re aware that this is a new subject and it’s a definite break from how chapter 11 ended which deals with the seven trumpets. And let me just add that in my understanding of this passage, the young pregnant woman represents what I think of as biblical Israel.

Karen:     “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter.”

David:     And I’m just assuming that’s Jesus.

Karen:     “And her child was snatched up to God into his throne.”

David:     So the devil didn’t get to eat the baby, did he? “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon was hurled down. That ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.”

Karen:     I continue. “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ”, and we’re going to skip a few verses here. “Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them, but woe to the earth and the seas, because the devil has gone down to you. He is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.”

David:     When the devil or “the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman” that’s Israel, “who had given birth to the male child, but with divine help, she escapes the dragon. Then the dragon was enraged”, the Bible reads, that the woman and “went off to make war against the rest of her offspring.” Now this is a surprise. “Those who obey God’s commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” So, Satan’s earlier target was Israel, but now it has become Christians.

Karen:     “And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea, and I saw a beast coming out of the sea.” Now this is evil enemy mastermind number two. “He had 10 horns and seven heads with 10 crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.” And we’re going to skip a few verses here.

David:     Those could be potential rabbit trails.

Karen:     Just picking up a theme in here. “Men worship the dragon” Satan “because he had given authority to the beast” or antichrist. He, the beast, “was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”

David:     For the most part, we’re reading scripture here. I’m continuing, “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear.” Now here’s the warning. “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with a sword, with a sword he will be killed.”

Karen:     And this is what calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints, and it’s not a pretty picture, is it?

David:     No, it certainly isn’t. So, we got two down, one more evil enemy mastermind to go, and that’s the false prophet. So now I’m into the next paragraph, chapter 13, verse 11. “Then I saw another beast. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.”

Karen:     So, this is the evil enemy mastermind #3. The False Prophet.

David:     This is the religious charlatan, ok. Keep going.

Karen:     “He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.”

David:     “Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”

He, the False Prophet-evil enemy mastermind #3, “forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.”

Karen:     Ok. This does not sound like a good time to be alive if you’re Christian. And this is the first time this revelations study as we’ve been going through has moved my intellect down into my feeling process. And my heart and my soul…

David:     …is scared. So, let’s go back and review the summary sentence for the entire book of Revelation. Ok?

I said from the beginning, history is headed inexorably, which means there’s no stopping it for the bloody global showdown between the force of good and evil; light and darkness, Christ and the anti-Christ, God and Satan, which the devil decisively wins, however, only temporarily. Followers of Jesus needs to understand this and prepare themselves accordingly.

I used to think accounts in Revelation could be something that are yet to be conceived. Great grandchildren might have to face. Then there was a time my thoughts changed to considering that our 9 precious adult grandchildren might be alive in this kind of world we’re reading about. The more I study these chapters however and time it along, the more I’m praying for our 3 living adult children and their spouses. Now all in their 50’s and 60’s. And for Angela, the wife of our son Jeremy who died of Lymphoma. And now this is kind of crazy but I’m thinking about maybe us going through these kinds of times. We are both in our 80s, I just turned 87. And today’s world events can happen very quickly. We could still be around when these days begin to come into focus.

Karen:     So, because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the skills of patient endurance and faithfulness.

David:     Okay, that’s basically what our sentence is for this visit. So I’m going to read it again. Because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the life skills of patient endurance and faithfulness. Let’s pick those right out of Scripture.

Revelation 13:10 reads, “This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

Karen:     In Revelation 14.12 reads, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”

David:     Okay, how might we begin to develop those skills?

Karen:     I think that’s the basic question that you and I have come to, out of basically your extended study of Revelation. That you’re going back to it again and again. I think we have to prepare ourselves to be martyrs. We’re well aware that Christians all around the world in different nations are being martyred for their faith.

David:     Yeah, that’s going on.

Karen:     Even now and has for centuries. But it hasn’t touched America.

David:     No.

Karen:     But I think what we’re learning from these passages is that one day it will.

David:     And am I willing to die for my faith? It’s kind of an intellectual exercise right now, but I’d let it go down into my emotions. When the time comes, am I going to say, “Yeah, take my life, I’m not going to deny it”?

Karen:     And I think to the best that we can assess that question, am I ready to do that? I am ready to do that. Of course, I’m in my 80s, so the eminence of death is closer to us anyway.

David:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion now.

Karen:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion, but I do feel like I could joyfully even perhaps not be joyful about torture, but the end of my life I would stand and pray some more as that was happening.

David:     Yeah, should we think maybe about living closer to those we love. We got people spread all…

Karen:     …family.

David:     Our own kids… some California… have grandkids in Arizona.

Karen:     The nuclear family used to live in extended houses. In fact, that happens all over the world. You had family home and then someone built a little.

David:     Yeah. Addition

Karen:     Addition. But that doesn’t happen. So, we have a nuclear family arrangement. But I think one of the things that we can do is set up regular times of communication and sharing. And I think perhaps we need to emphasize to our adult grandchildren that we know that our time is short. And we want to spend time with them face to face building into their lives. And I think you and I need to just deliberately schedule that stuff in because they’re busy when they’re midlife. They got all kinds of things going on. So, I think that’s an initiative perhaps we can begin.

David:     One of the questions, Karen, that I’ve been really wrestling with it a lot is: How do we do church? When these days come, church is not going to be like we think of church at this point.

Karen:     Well, the churches in America are dying, you know. They’re closing their doors.

David:     And either they will all be barred from people even coming into them or otherwise there’s going to be false messages they’re given.

Karen:     Well, I think that Christians in China have really set a model and an example for this. And that they have house churches or they meet regularly together for worship and prayer and sharing their lives.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     That’s probably something we should begin to think about even now.

David:     Yeah, I think most extended families would say, “Who in our family might need extra care?” That we need to say, “Okay, we need to be especially concerned about so-and-so.” What books might be good for us to read? I mean there are all kinds of historical books as to these people through the years who have stood for their faith. And they’re very thrilling books. There might be books that have come out of China now. I don’t know. What do we understand faithfulness to look like in days when the enemy is totally in charge of what is going on? How do we carry on life if we don’t have the mark that is required? That’s going to be a terrible thing for us to try to figure out.

Karen:     I think one of the things we can do is to look at Christians who have survived under communism. Communism is a godless…

David:     Yeah, it doesn’t have to be Russian. You know, it could be North Korea.

Karen:     Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that there are precedents that exist even in our contemporary time that we can look at. And we could just have to be more intentional about seeking those stories out, finding those books, keeping a catalog of them, and going to them and referring to them.

David:     Here’s Karen, this one is going to be something I know that people, they will struggle with this. What if the days are evil and Jesus hasn’t returned yet and their whole life system has said, “We’ll never have to face these things”? Now that’s kind of silly because there are people around the world facing evil now.

Karen:     Now.

David:     Yeah, but what will that do and will they just give up? People will wrestle with that and we will have to if we’re still around counsel people in that regard.

Karen:     Well, I think in our American system of democracy, there’s been a safety in that for those of us who are believers that maybe we’ll change in the days ahead. I mean, we’re going through very tumultuous discussions and there are new entities rising as far as movements are concerned. We don’t really know where they’re all going or how long they’ll last or how far they go. So I think it’s these are discussions that even those of us who are Americans need to seriously take part in.

David:     I’ve tried to give a different direction as we’ve been going through these passages. A lot of times when you hear ministers preach on this, it says about the beast that one of the seven heads has had a fatal wound. It actually says that twice and I skipped over one of those. I should have skipped over the other one as well because I think those are again rabbit trails.

Karen:     Ancillary to the through line.

David:     I would say also that I want to get to how this chapter in this section comes to a close. There are three angels. After talking about these three evil enemy masterminds, it talks about martyrs, 144,000. That refers back to chapter seven of the book of Revelation. But then it says there are three angels who come. I’ll skip the one in the middle. I just want to give the first and the last. “Then I saw another angel flying in midair had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth, to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory because the hour of his judgment has come’.”

It doesn’t sound like it, but it’s come. “Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the springs of water.” So, evangelism is still going on during these awful days. In fact, a lot of times there are more people come to the Lord through the hard times than come to the Lord through the easy terms.

I’ll skip into 2. Here is a third angel, followed them and said in a loud voice. This is kind of a warning. “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast in his image or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” Then it follows with these words again, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” So, again, there is that warning sign that comes.

Karen:     And then this promise that goes with those who remain faithful, which is wonderful.

David:     Yeah, I’d just like to, before I forget to say what chapters do we want people to look at for our next visit? Okay?

Karen:     So, we’re asking our listeners to participate in the revelation study with us on their own. So read ahead, Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. That would be the next five chapters.

David:     That last chapter that you just said, that’s the return of the king.

Karen:     Okay, we’re for that. We’re for heading for that for sure.

David:     Okay, I remember saying at the end of the trumpets. It doesn’t end, but it seems like it should end because it’s a natural ending to the book. This is another natural ending to the book, but it doesn’t end. So, here’s how chapter 14 ends, but there will be 15, 16, 17, 18 and so on. Okay?

“I looked and there before me was a white cloud.” So, if it’s white, that’s…

Karen:     …virtue or Christ, that’s some of these full Christ.

David:     “And seated on the cloud was one like a son of man.” Now that’s a phrase that refers to Jesus. So, this is Jesus sitting on a white cloud with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. “Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, ‘Take your sickle and reap because the time to harvest is come for the harvest of the earth is ripe’. So, he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth and the earth was harvested.”

That’s a good harvest. That’s bringing in the crops. Those are the people of God. And then there’s another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. “Still another angel who had charged the fire came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle. ‘Take your sharp sickle and gather the cluster of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe’. The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered the grapes, and threw them into a great wine press of God’s wrath.”

So, these are those who are the enemies. “They were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horse’s bridles for a distance of a thousand six hundred stadia.”

My Bible says that’s about a hundred kilometers. Okay, so this is the exact opposite picture. So, it’s bringing to conclusion what is going on, but it can be one of two things. Obviously, the implication is you want to be…

Karen:     …on the side of the righteous.

David:     Yeah. After this there is another break, and we’re going to go now to the seven angels with the seven plagues or the seven bowls of God’s wrath, and we’ll talk about things like Armageddon. We’ll talk about the symbolic city of Babylon, who is pictured in Scripture, has a great prostitute who sits on many waters and so on. So, it doesn’t stop. It goes on, hopefully we haven’t lost people. How long back do you think we might have lost about 10 minutes ago?

Karen:     We worked hard at making this clear. I hope they stay with us just because they love us.

David:     We bit off a big piece here.

Karen:     It’s a big piece. You bit this one off.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     I’m chewing along these sides because I love you.

David:     Thank you. I’m glad that you do. Your laughter helps every so often what I’m deep in the middle of all this.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters hosts@beforewego.show.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187. Visit Mainstay Ministries for best-selling titles, and other resources authored by Karen Mains.

David:     In our study of the book of Revelation, we have come to the section we’re calling the evil enemy masterminds. More specifically, Karen, that refers to whom?

Karen:     Well, that refers to the devil, the anti-Christ, and the false prophet. And text-wise, we’re now in chapters 12, 13, and 14 of the Book of Revelation.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     In Revelation chapter 12, the first and the worst of the three evil enemy masterminds is introduced. It’s an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Karen:     The chapter Revelation 12 begins this way. “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.”

David:     So, very quickly, we’re aware that this is a new subject and it’s a definite break from how chapter 11 ended which deals with the seven trumpets. And let me just add that in my understanding of this passage, the young pregnant woman represents what I think of as biblical Israel.

Karen:     “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter.”

David:     And I’m just assuming that’s Jesus.

Karen:     “And her child was snatched up to God into his throne.”

David:     So the devil didn’t get to eat the baby, did he? “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon was hurled down. That ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.”

Karen:     I continue. “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ”, and we’re going to skip a few verses here. “Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them, but woe to the earth and the seas, because the devil has gone down to you. He is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.”

David:     When the devil or “the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman” that’s Israel, “who had given birth to the male child, but with divine help, she escapes the dragon. Then the dragon was enraged”, the Bible reads, that the woman and “went off to make war against the rest of her offspring.” Now this is a surprise. “Those who obey God’s commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” So, Satan’s earlier target was Israel, but now it has become Christians.

Karen:     “And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea, and I saw a beast coming out of the sea.” Now this is evil enemy mastermind number two. “He had 10 horns and seven heads with 10 crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.” And we’re going to skip a few verses here.

David:     Those could be potential rabbit trails.

Karen:     Just picking up a theme in here. “Men worship the dragon” Satan “because he had given authority to the beast” or antichrist. He, the beast, “was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”

David:     For the most part, we’re reading scripture here. I’m continuing, “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear.” Now here’s the warning. “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with a sword, with a sword he will be killed.”

Karen:     And this is what calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints, and it’s not a pretty picture, is it?

David:     No, it certainly isn’t. So, we got two down, one more evil enemy mastermind to go, and that’s the false prophet. So now I’m into the next paragraph, chapter 13, verse 11. “Then I saw another beast. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.”

Karen:     So, this is the evil enemy mastermind #3. The False Prophet.

David:     This is the religious charlatan, ok. Keep going.

Karen:     “He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.”

David:     “Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”

He, the False Prophet-evil enemy mastermind #3, “forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.”

Karen:     Ok. This does not sound like a good time to be alive if you’re Christian. And this is the first time this revelations study as we’ve been going through has moved my intellect down into my feeling process. And my heart and my soul…

David:     …is scared. So, let’s go back and review the summary sentence for the entire book of Revelation. Ok?

I said from the beginning, history is headed inexorably, which means there’s no stopping it for the bloody global showdown between the force of good and evil; light and darkness, Christ and the anti-Christ, God and Satan, which the devil decisively wins, however, only temporarily. Followers of Jesus needs to understand this and prepare themselves accordingly.

I used to think accounts in Revelation could be something that are yet to be conceived. Great grandchildren might have to face. Then there was a time my thoughts changed to considering that our 9 precious adult grandchildren might be alive in this kind of world we’re reading about. The more I study these chapters however and time it along, the more I’m praying for our 3 living adult children and their spouses. Now all in their 50’s and 60’s. And for Angela, the wife of our son Jeremy who died of Lymphoma. And now this is kind of crazy but I’m thinking about maybe us going through these kinds of times. We are both in our 80s, I just turned 87. And today’s world events can happen very quickly. We could still be around when these days begin to come into focus.

Karen:     So, because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the skills of patient endurance and faithfulness.

David:     Okay, that’s basically what our sentence is for this visit. So I’m going to read it again. Because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the life skills of patient endurance and faithfulness. Let’s pick those right out of Scripture.

Revelation 13:10 reads, “This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

Karen:     In Revelation 14.12 reads, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”

David:     Okay, how might we begin to develop those skills?

Karen:     I think that’s the basic question that you and I have come to, out of basically your extended study of Revelation. That you’re going back to it again and again. I think we have to prepare ourselves to be martyrs. We’re well aware that Christians all around the world in different nations are being martyred for their faith.

David:     Yeah, that’s going on.

Karen:     Even now and has for centuries. But it hasn’t touched America.

David:     No.

Karen:     But I think what we’re learning from these passages is that one day it will.

David:     And am I willing to die for my faith? It’s kind of an intellectual exercise right now, but I’d let it go down into my emotions. When the time comes, am I going to say, “Yeah, take my life, I’m not going to deny it”?

Karen:     And I think to the best that we can assess that question, am I ready to do that? I am ready to do that. Of course, I’m in my 80s, so the eminence of death is closer to us anyway.

David:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion now.

Karen:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion, but I do feel like I could joyfully even perhaps not be joyful about torture, but the end of my life I would stand and pray some more as that was happening.

David:     Yeah, should we think maybe about living closer to those we love. We got people spread all…

Karen:     …family.

David:     Our own kids… some California… have grandkids in Arizona.

Karen:     The nuclear family used to live in extended houses. In fact, that happens all over the world. You had family home and then someone built a little.

David:     Yeah. Addition

Karen:     Addition. But that doesn’t happen. So, we have a nuclear family arrangement. But I think one of the things that we can do is set up regular times of communication and sharing. And I think perhaps we need to emphasize to our adult grandchildren that we know that our time is short. And we want to spend time with them face to face building into their lives. And I think you and I need to just deliberately schedule that stuff in because they’re busy when they’re midlife. They got all kinds of things going on. So, I think that’s an initiative perhaps we can begin.

David:     One of the questions, Karen, that I’ve been really wrestling with it a lot is: How do we do church? When these days come, church is not going to be like we think of church at this point.

Karen:     Well, the churches in America are dying, you know. They’re closing their doors.

David:     And either they will all be barred from people even coming into them or otherwise there’s going to be false messages they’re given.

Karen:     Well, I think that Christians in China have really set a model and an example for this. And that they have house churches or they meet regularly together for worship and prayer and sharing their lives.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     That’s probably something we should begin to think about even now.

David:     Yeah, I think most extended families would say, “Who in our family might need extra care?” That we need to say, “Okay, we need to be especially concerned about so-and-so.” What books might be good for us to read? I mean there are all kinds of historical books as to these people through the years who have stood for their faith. And they’re very thrilling books. There might be books that have come out of China now. I don’t know. What do we understand faithfulness to look like in days when the enemy is totally in charge of what is going on? How do we carry on life if we don’t have the mark that is required? That’s going to be a terrible thing for us to try to figure out.

Karen:     I think one of the things we can do is to look at Christians who have survived under communism. Communism is a godless…

David:     Yeah, it doesn’t have to be Russian. You know, it could be North Korea.

Karen:     Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that there are precedents that exist even in our contemporary time that we can look at. And we could just have to be more intentional about seeking those stories out, finding those books, keeping a catalog of them, and going to them and referring to them.

David:     Here’s Karen, this one is going to be something I know that people, they will struggle with this. What if the days are evil and Jesus hasn’t returned yet and their whole life system has said, “We’ll never have to face these things”? Now that’s kind of silly because there are people around the world facing evil now.

Karen:     Now.

David:     Yeah, but what will that do and will they just give up? People will wrestle with that and we will have to if we’re still around counsel people in that regard.

Karen:     Well, I think in our American system of democracy, there’s been a safety in that for those of us who are believers that maybe we’ll change in the days ahead. I mean, we’re going through very tumultuous discussions and there are new entities rising as far as movements are concerned. We don’t really know where they’re all going or how long they’ll last or how far they go. So I think it’s these are discussions that even those of us who are Americans need to seriously take part in.

David:     I’ve tried to give a different direction as we’ve been going through these passages. A lot of times when you hear ministers preach on this, it says about the beast that one of the seven heads has had a fatal wound. It actually says that twice and I skipped over one of those. I should have skipped over the other one as well because I think those are again rabbit trails.

Karen:     Ancillary to the through line.

David:     I would say also that I want to get to how this chapter in this section comes to a close. There are three angels. After talking about these three evil enemy masterminds, it talks about martyrs, 144,000. That refers back to chapter seven of the book of Revelation. But then it says there are three angels who come. I’ll skip the one in the middle. I just want to give the first and the last. “Then I saw another angel flying in midair had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth, to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory because the hour of his judgment has come’.”

It doesn’t sound like it, but it’s come. “Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the springs of water.” So, evangelism is still going on during these awful days. In fact, a lot of times there are more people come to the Lord through the hard times than come to the Lord through the easy terms.

I’ll skip into 2. Here is a third angel, followed them and said in a loud voice. This is kind of a warning. “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast in his image or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” Then it follows with these words again, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” So, again, there is that warning sign that comes.

Karen:     And then this promise that goes with those who remain faithful, which is wonderful.

David:     Yeah, I’d just like to, before I forget to say what chapters do we want people to look at for our next visit? Okay?

Karen:     So, we’re asking our listeners to participate in the revelation study with us on their own. So read ahead, Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. That would be the next five chapters.

David:     That last chapter that you just said, that’s the return of the king.

Karen:     Okay, we’re for that. We’re for heading for that for sure.

David:     Okay, I remember saying at the end of the trumpets. It doesn’t end, but it seems like it should end because it’s a natural ending to the book. This is another natural ending to the book, but it doesn’t end. So, here’s how chapter 14 ends, but there will be 15, 16, 17, 18 and so on. Okay?

“I looked and there before me was a white cloud.” So, if it’s white, that’s…

Karen:     …virtue or Christ, that’s some of these full Christ.

David:     “And seated on the cloud was one like a son of man.” Now that’s a phrase that refers to Jesus. So, this is Jesus sitting on a white cloud with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. “Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, ‘Take your sickle and reap because the time to harvest is come for the harvest of the earth is ripe’. So, he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth and the earth was harvested.”

That’s a good harvest. That’s bringing in the crops. Those are the people of God. And then there’s another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. “Still another angel who had charged the fire came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle. ‘Take your sharp sickle and gather the cluster of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe’. The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered the grapes, and threw them into a great wine press of God’s wrath.”

So, these are those who are the enemies. “They were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horse’s bridles for a distance of a thousand six hundred stadia.”

My Bible says that’s about a hundred kilometers. Okay, so this is the exact opposite picture. So, it’s bringing to conclusion what is going on, but it can be one of two things. Obviously, the implication is you want to be…

Karen:     …on the side of the righteous.

David:     Yeah. After this there is another break, and we’re going to go now to the seven angels with the seven plagues or the seven bowls of God’s wrath, and we’ll talk about things like Armageddon. We’ll talk about the symbolic city of Babylon, who is pictured in Scripture, has a great prostitute who sits on many waters and so on. So, it doesn’t stop. It goes on, hopefully we haven’t lost people. How long back do you think we might have lost about 10 minutes ago?

Karen:     We worked hard at making this clear. I hope they stay with us just because they love us.

David:     We bit off a big piece here.

Karen:     It’s a big piece. You bit this one off.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     I’m chewing along these sides because I love you.

David:     Thank you. I’m glad that you do. Your laughter helps every so often what I’m deep in the middle of all this.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters hosts@beforewego.show.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187. Visit Mainstay Ministries for best-selling titles, and other resources authored by Karen Mains.

David:     In our study of the book of Revelation, we have come to the section we’re calling the evil enemy masterminds. More specifically, Karen, that refers to whom?

Karen:     Well, that refers to the devil, the anti-Christ, and the false prophet. And text-wise, we’re now in chapters 12, 13, and 14 of the Book of Revelation.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     In Revelation chapter 12, the first and the worst of the three evil enemy masterminds is introduced. It’s an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Karen:     The chapter Revelation 12 begins this way. “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.”

David:     So, very quickly, we’re aware that this is a new subject and it’s a definite break from how chapter 11 ended which deals with the seven trumpets. And let me just add that in my understanding of this passage, the young pregnant woman represents what I think of as biblical Israel.

Karen:     “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter.”

David:     And I’m just assuming that’s Jesus.

Karen:     “And her child was snatched up to God into his throne.”

David:     So the devil didn’t get to eat the baby, did he? “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon was hurled down. That ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.”

Karen:     I continue. “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ”, and we’re going to skip a few verses here. “Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them, but woe to the earth and the seas, because the devil has gone down to you. He is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.”

David:     When the devil or “the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman” that’s Israel, “who had given birth to the male child, but with divine help, she escapes the dragon. Then the dragon was enraged”, the Bible reads, that the woman and “went off to make war against the rest of her offspring.” Now this is a surprise. “Those who obey God’s commands and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” So, Satan’s earlier target was Israel, but now it has become Christians.

Karen:     “And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea, and I saw a beast coming out of the sea.” Now this is evil enemy mastermind number two. “He had 10 horns and seven heads with 10 crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.” And we’re going to skip a few verses here.

David:     Those could be potential rabbit trails.

Karen:     Just picking up a theme in here. “Men worship the dragon” Satan “because he had given authority to the beast” or antichrist. He, the beast, “was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”

David:     For the most part, we’re reading scripture here. I’m continuing, “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear.” Now here’s the warning. “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with a sword, with a sword he will be killed.”

Karen:     And this is what calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints, and it’s not a pretty picture, is it?

David:     No, it certainly isn’t. So, we got two down, one more evil enemy mastermind to go, and that’s the false prophet. So now I’m into the next paragraph, chapter 13, verse 11. “Then I saw another beast. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.”

Karen:     So, this is the evil enemy mastermind #3. The False Prophet.

David:     This is the religious charlatan, ok. Keep going.

Karen:     “He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.”

David:     “Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”

He, the False Prophet-evil enemy mastermind #3, “forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.”

Karen:     Ok. This does not sound like a good time to be alive if you’re Christian. And this is the first time this revelations study as we’ve been going through has moved my intellect down into my feeling process. And my heart and my soul…

David:     …is scared. So, let’s go back and review the summary sentence for the entire book of Revelation. Ok?

I said from the beginning, history is headed inexorably, which means there’s no stopping it for the bloody global showdown between the force of good and evil; light and darkness, Christ and the anti-Christ, God and Satan, which the devil decisively wins, however, only temporarily. Followers of Jesus needs to understand this and prepare themselves accordingly.

I used to think accounts in Revelation could be something that are yet to be conceived. Great grandchildren might have to face. Then there was a time my thoughts changed to considering that our 9 precious adult grandchildren might be alive in this kind of world we’re reading about. The more I study these chapters however and time it along, the more I’m praying for our 3 living adult children and their spouses. Now all in their 50’s and 60’s. And for Angela, the wife of our son Jeremy who died of Lymphoma. And now this is kind of crazy but I’m thinking about maybe us going through these kinds of times. We are both in our 80s, I just turned 87. And today’s world events can happen very quickly. We could still be around when these days begin to come into focus.

Karen:     So, because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the skills of patient endurance and faithfulness.

David:     Okay, that’s basically what our sentence is for this visit. So I’m going to read it again. Because Scripture clearly prophesies a time when the evil enemy masterminds established their diabolical rule on planet Earth, Christ followers would do well even now attempting to cultivate the life skills of patient endurance and faithfulness. Let’s pick those right out of Scripture.

Revelation 13:10 reads, “This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

Karen:     In Revelation 14.12 reads, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”

David:     Okay, how might we begin to develop those skills?

Karen:     I think that’s the basic question that you and I have come to, out of basically your extended study of Revelation. That you’re going back to it again and again. I think we have to prepare ourselves to be martyrs. We’re well aware that Christians all around the world in different nations are being martyred for their faith.

David:     Yeah, that’s going on.

Karen:     Even now and has for centuries. But it hasn’t touched America.

David:     No.

Karen:     But I think what we’re learning from these passages is that one day it will.

David:     And am I willing to die for my faith? It’s kind of an intellectual exercise right now, but I’d let it go down into my emotions. When the time comes, am I going to say, “Yeah, take my life, I’m not going to deny it”?

Karen:     And I think to the best that we can assess that question, am I ready to do that? I am ready to do that. Of course, I’m in my 80s, so the eminence of death is closer to us anyway.

David:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion now.

Karen:     It’s a lot easier to come to that conclusion, but I do feel like I could joyfully even perhaps not be joyful about torture, but the end of my life I would stand and pray some more as that was happening.

David:     Yeah, should we think maybe about living closer to those we love. We got people spread all…

Karen:     …family.

David:     Our own kids… some California… have grandkids in Arizona.

Karen:     The nuclear family used to live in extended houses. In fact, that happens all over the world. You had family home and then someone built a little.

David:     Yeah. Addition

Karen:     Addition. But that doesn’t happen. So, we have a nuclear family arrangement. But I think one of the things that we can do is set up regular times of communication and sharing. And I think perhaps we need to emphasize to our adult grandchildren that we know that our time is short. And we want to spend time with them face to face building into their lives. And I think you and I need to just deliberately schedule that stuff in because they’re busy when they’re midlife. They got all kinds of things going on. So, I think that’s an initiative perhaps we can begin.

David:     One of the questions, Karen, that I’ve been really wrestling with it a lot is: How do we do church? When these days come, church is not going to be like we think of church at this point.

Karen:     Well, the churches in America are dying, you know. They’re closing their doors.

David:     And either they will all be barred from people even coming into them or otherwise there’s going to be false messages they’re given.

Karen:     Well, I think that Christians in China have really set a model and an example for this. And that they have house churches or they meet regularly together for worship and prayer and sharing their lives.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     That’s probably something we should begin to think about even now.

David:     Yeah, I think most extended families would say, “Who in our family might need extra care?” That we need to say, “Okay, we need to be especially concerned about so-and-so.” What books might be good for us to read? I mean there are all kinds of historical books as to these people through the years who have stood for their faith. And they’re very thrilling books. There might be books that have come out of China now. I don’t know. What do we understand faithfulness to look like in days when the enemy is totally in charge of what is going on? How do we carry on life if we don’t have the mark that is required? That’s going to be a terrible thing for us to try to figure out.

Karen:     I think one of the things we can do is to look at Christians who have survived under communism. Communism is a godless…

David:     Yeah, it doesn’t have to be Russian. You know, it could be North Korea.

Karen:     Yeah. Exactly. So, I think that there are precedents that exist even in our contemporary time that we can look at. And we could just have to be more intentional about seeking those stories out, finding those books, keeping a catalog of them, and going to them and referring to them.

David:     Here’s Karen, this one is going to be something I know that people, they will struggle with this. What if the days are evil and Jesus hasn’t returned yet and their whole life system has said, “We’ll never have to face these things”? Now that’s kind of silly because there are people around the world facing evil now.

Karen:     Now.

David:     Yeah, but what will that do and will they just give up? People will wrestle with that and we will have to if we’re still around counsel people in that regard.

Karen:     Well, I think in our American system of democracy, there’s been a safety in that for those of us who are believers that maybe we’ll change in the days ahead. I mean, we’re going through very tumultuous discussions and there are new entities rising as far as movements are concerned. We don’t really know where they’re all going or how long they’ll last or how far they go. So I think it’s these are discussions that even those of us who are Americans need to seriously take part in.

David:     I’ve tried to give a different direction as we’ve been going through these passages. A lot of times when you hear ministers preach on this, it says about the beast that one of the seven heads has had a fatal wound. It actually says that twice and I skipped over one of those. I should have skipped over the other one as well because I think those are again rabbit trails.

Karen:     Ancillary to the through line.

David:     I would say also that I want to get to how this chapter in this section comes to a close. There are three angels. After talking about these three evil enemy masterminds, it talks about martyrs, 144,000. That refers back to chapter seven of the book of Revelation. But then it says there are three angels who come. I’ll skip the one in the middle. I just want to give the first and the last. “Then I saw another angel flying in midair had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth, to every nation, tribe, language, and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory because the hour of his judgment has come’.”

It doesn’t sound like it, but it’s come. “Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the springs of water.” So, evangelism is still going on during these awful days. In fact, a lot of times there are more people come to the Lord through the hard times than come to the Lord through the easy terms.

I’ll skip into 2. Here is a third angel, followed them and said in a loud voice. This is kind of a warning. “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast in his image or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” Then it follows with these words again, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” So, again, there is that warning sign that comes.

Karen:     And then this promise that goes with those who remain faithful, which is wonderful.

David:     Yeah, I’d just like to, before I forget to say what chapters do we want people to look at for our next visit? Okay?

Karen:     So, we’re asking our listeners to participate in the revelation study with us on their own. So read ahead, Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. That would be the next five chapters.

David:     That last chapter that you just said, that’s the return of the king.

Karen:     Okay, we’re for that. We’re for heading for that for sure.

David:     Okay, I remember saying at the end of the trumpets. It doesn’t end, but it seems like it should end because it’s a natural ending to the book. This is another natural ending to the book, but it doesn’t end. So, here’s how chapter 14 ends, but there will be 15, 16, 17, 18 and so on. Okay?

“I looked and there before me was a white cloud.” So, if it’s white, that’s…

Karen:     …virtue or Christ, that’s some of these full Christ.

David:     “And seated on the cloud was one like a son of man.” Now that’s a phrase that refers to Jesus. So, this is Jesus sitting on a white cloud with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. “Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, ‘Take your sickle and reap because the time to harvest is come for the harvest of the earth is ripe’. So, he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth and the earth was harvested.”

That’s a good harvest. That’s bringing in the crops. Those are the people of God. And then there’s another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. “Still another angel who had charged the fire came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle. ‘Take your sharp sickle and gather the cluster of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe’. The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered the grapes, and threw them into a great wine press of God’s wrath.”

So, these are those who are the enemies. “They were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horse’s bridles for a distance of a thousand six hundred stadia.”

My Bible says that’s about a hundred kilometers. Okay, so this is the exact opposite picture. So, it’s bringing to conclusion what is going on, but it can be one of two things. Obviously, the implication is you want to be…

Karen:     …on the side of the righteous.

David:     Yeah. After this there is another break, and we’re going to go now to the seven angels with the seven plagues or the seven bowls of God’s wrath, and we’ll talk about things like Armageddon. We’ll talk about the symbolic city of Babylon, who is pictured in Scripture, has a great prostitute who sits on many waters and so on. So, it doesn’t stop. It goes on, hopefully we haven’t lost people. How long back do you think we might have lost about 10 minutes ago?

Karen:     We worked hard at making this clear. I hope they stay with us just because they love us.

David:     We bit off a big piece here.

Karen:     It’s a big piece. You bit this one off.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     I’m chewing along these sides because I love you.

David:     Thank you. I’m glad that you do. Your laughter helps every so often what I’m deep in the middle of all this.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters hosts@beforewego.show.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187. Visit Mainstay Ministries for best-selling titles, and other resources authored by Karen Mains.