David:     Following the surrender of Germany in World War II, tribunals were held, a series of them, in which close to 200 top Nazi governmental and military leaders were tried for war crimes.

Karen:     And in many of these cases there would be consequences to be paid for what was done. Of course, close to the end of the war, Hitler and two of his top officials committed suicide. So, you might say their day of accounting remains yet future, but it will happen.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Do you recall Karen where those war trials were held and why that given site was chosen?

Karen:     Well, I know the name of the place was Nuremberg, Germany, but I don’t remember or recall why that site was chosen.

David:     It was because that Bavarian city back in the 1930s had spawned the early rise of the Third Reich by of these gigantic, massive Nazi propaganda rallies there. And at the war’s end, the victorious allies felt this was a fitting place to now also stage Nazism’s symbolic death.

Karen:     Oh, that’s fascinating.

David:     In our present series on the Book of Revelation, we have been covering larger sections of material than a minister normally would in a given presentation. And that’s going to be true of this. Our last visit for now anyway, based on the final book of the Bible, Revelation.

Karen:     So specifically, we will be looking at Revelation chapters 20, 21, and 22.

David:     And we’re going to examine those passages through the lens of consequences.

Karen:     Okay, Revelation chapter 20 begins, “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it over him to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. And after that, he must be set free for a short time.”

David:     So, Satan is a big-time loser. According to the Judge of the Universe, he gets a thousand-year sentence. So, how Satan had chosen to operate had real consequences.

Karen:     So, let’s go on with verse four. We’re following a certain thread here.

David:     Okay.

Karen:     Continuing reading in Revelation 20. “I saw thrones in which those who were seated were given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus. And because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

David:     That still sounds good. These believers made the difficult choice of refusing to worship the beast. And it cost them their lives. But look at what they gained. A thousand years of reigning with Jesus here on planet earth.

Karen:     So, we can conclude that there are good consequences as well as bad consequences.

David:     Yeah, I think that’s a good point to make. Just by way of clarification. In verse six it reads, “The second death has no power over them,” these martyrs. Later in verse 13, the next, the last sentence in the chapter reads this way, “The lake of fire is the second death.” So, you could rightly read the passage as these martyrs came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The lake of fire had no power over them. Okay.

Karen:     Reading from scripture again. “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations and the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people.”

The city loves you. You can almost hear, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. “But fire came down from heaven and devoured them and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Now that could generate some questions and discussions.

David:     Since God didn’t ask me for my opinion, I’m not going to comment on whether it was fair judgment on his part to have the devil tormented day and night forever and ever. But I do want to underscore again that how human beings or angels or the devil for that matter choose to live, it’s going to have real consequences.

Karen:     The last paragraph in Revelation chapter 20 reads, “Then I saw a great white throne in him who was seated on it. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

David:     All that great crowd standing before the throne, I’m kind of in my mind looking for somebody and yeah, he’s going to be there. Who do you think I’m thinking about, Karen?

Karen:     I’m not sure.

David:     Okay, I’m thinking Adolf Hitler is in that room somewhere.

Karen:     Oh, okay.

David:     And all those Nazi guys.

“The sea gave up the dead that were in it and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them and each person was judged according to what they had done. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Now we’re going to make a huge change. We’re into the next chapter.

Karen:     Here’s paragraph one of Revelation chapter 21. “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look, God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away.’”

David:     Hey, you almost want to read that all over. There are a lot of wonderful words one can read here regarding the heavenly consequences of living for the Lord. Probably my favorite passage in this section about heaven is chapter 22:1-5. Listen to Karen read with the mindset that this can be a real part of your future in mine as Christ’s followers.

Karen:     “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.”

David:     That’s the best part of all. They will reign forever and ever. Again, here’s what we’re saying reduced to a sentence.

Karen:     Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives now will have eternal consequences.

David:     Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives now will have eternal consequences. For example, Karen.

Karen:     I believe there will be people in the difficult days to come under the beast or the antichrist who think of themselves. These Christians who nevertheless would rationalized that there is no way to live without that mark every man is supposed to have. I mean without it you can’t get food or other necessities. So, what do you do? You do what you have to do. That’s a decision that gets made.

David:     Yeah. Unfortunately, they may think about the immediate and forget about the consequences. But the easy choice will not always be the wise choice.

Karen:     So, we know people today, lots of them, who say, “I sincerely think of myself as a Christian, but I have problems with church”. “Yes, I know there are some good ones, but not where I live. And just to drive there and back on Sunday plus the service would mean four hours gone out of our weekends”. This has lots of implications and applications in various ways, this kind of thinking.

David:     Yeah, and yes, have you considered the possible consequences of thinking the way you are? That’s what I would ask.

Karen:     Those defendants, the men put an on trial at Nuremberg, somewhere along the line, they had to make a decision. Each of them did. Would that person work with and eventually support a charismatic but controversial figure by the name of Adolf Hitler? And their yes carried some really serious consequences.

David:     And I shouldn’t need to say it, but Hitler was not the last such charismatic, terribly flawed leader to ask people to support him and the vision he talks about all the time because he’s supposedly doing everything for their benefit. Someone who says he’s the champion of the forgotten doesn’t make it true.

Karen:     And the biggest demigod of them all has yet to make his appearance known. But you and I have a feeling because of these revelation passages that that may not be far off.

David:     We would just say again: Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives has consequences, sometimes eternal consequences. The key truth we’ve repeated often during this series is that history is headed inexorably toward a bloody showdown between the forces of good and evil, light and darkness, Christ and the antichrist, God and Satan, which the devil wins, however only temporarily. Followers of Christ need to understand this and prepare themselves accordingly.

Karen:     Now, I’m ready to leave revelation alone for a while and I’ve told you this and you very kindly have agreed with me. But I know you feel deep inside of you that these are passages that need to be preached. People sometimes say to me, “You know, Karen your husband as a prophet. ” How does that make you feel? What do you think about it?

David:     That I’m a prophet? I’m a man who thinks and lives and attempts to speak prophetically, even though God has never verbally or even in a dream, say, given me a message to speak on his behalf. So, to call myself a prophet would be presumptuous. But what I see on the horizon, Karen, deeply concerns me. I don’t believe I’m just an alarmist and I don’t feel a need to be anything but honest with my thoughts. The truth matter is whatever they might say to you about me, I think of you as being a prophetess, but not in a preaching ministerial type of way but in terms of your writing. I think many times your writing says the very things that I am saying, but in a totally different way.

Karen:     Well, I think artists are often prophetic because there is something that moves that artistic sensibility. So, I think that’s true. It’s a kind of revealing or it’s the work of the Holy Spirit within you to take the truths that you understand to be scriptural and present them in a form that has a wider readership or a wider following. And you had been preaching for years when you were in the pastorate on the Kingdom of God. Now that topic is mentioned over and over. In fact, I counted up how many times Christ talked about the Kingdom of God. It was a substantial number. I don’t remember the figure right now. I never heard about the Kingdom of God when I was raised in very fine conservative churches. And yet it was one of his major preaching messages. So, I took your sermons that you had preached on the Kingdom of God and I put them into story format. And I do believe there’s a prophetic forth telling in their in-story form. The books, of course, are the tales of the kingdom. There are three books, books one, two and three.

David:     I’m thinking, Karen, of a story we don’t refer to that often. It’s Prima the ballerina, but it has this same feeling of be very careful what you believe because it has consequences. Do you remember the story?

Karen:     Yeah. We have two ballerinas in the story. One is Prima and the other is Carny. And Prima gets enamored with her vision in the mirror. There are practice mirrors in these studios where ballerinas learned to dance. But she becomes enamored with herself as seen in the mirror. Now the truth is this happens to a lot of performers and people in public life. There’s a public persona that gets thrust on them and then they try to live it out even though it’s sometimes not their real self, only partially part of their real self. To the point where the image in the mirror begins to dominate Prima’s life. She has to do what the image wants her to do rather than being the performer who is revealed by the image. The other character is Carny who is also an excellent ballerina. But somehow Carny realizes that her dance, her gift of movement has been given to her by the king to use for the sake of other people.

So, I’ll just read a few last paragraphs from this story. Shortly, Prima quit the dancing studio company and joined the imperialist ballet theater which specialized in gala performances and was accompanied with many stars. And indeed, she became a solo ballerina. When the orchestra played, Prima remembered her mirror image and danced out the memory she saw in her mind. The spotlight dazzled her sight. When the audience gave her standing ovations, she curtsy just as she had seen the image in the mirror do low and grandly like a queen. Yes, she was the queen of the dance. During bows, the flowers of her admirers were piled at her feet just as she had dreamed.

But she had no friends to call her own and her family never called or came to see her dance. So, she slept in a room filled with mirrors in order not to be alone. Her dressing room on a wall of mirrors, her long sleek limousine windows were also mirrors closing away glimpses of bright city. She could never be, nor did she want to be far from her own reflection. In time, even when she wanted to, even when her body needed to rest, she could not stop dancing. Her mirror image demanded the motion and though she danced beautifully, she never danced joyfully.

But Carny and the found children danced in the streets. They laughed when they bumped each other or tripped on their shoelaces. And because they had all kinds of bodies, fat ones and short ones and skinny ones and roly-poly ones, the old people who also wanted to learn to dance were not afraid to try. And because no one was a principal dancer, but all a part of the troupe, even self-conscious middle aged ladies and men who had never learned to dance caught the infectious wonder of the steps and forgot to think about how funny they looked. Much of the delight of the Dancing Master, dancing studio companies were started all over the city. Here many people learned how to hold hands and how to help one another in the steps. Here people learned to love the rhythms of the new celebrations. Here they were taught the dance of the new day rising. And whenever they looked laughingly into each other’s eyes, they saw without knowing that they saw the loving look of their most beautiful king. For he is a king after all, who takes joy when the people of his kingdom learn all the steps.

David:     Consequences. Future, present, wonderful.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.

David:     Following the surrender of Germany in World War II, tribunals were held, a series of them, in which close to 200 top Nazi governmental and military leaders were tried for war crimes.

Karen:     And in many of these cases there would be consequences to be paid for what was done. Of course, close to the end of the war, Hitler and two of his top officials committed suicide. So, you might say their day of accounting remains yet future, but it will happen.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Do you recall Karen where those war trials were held and why that given site was chosen?

Karen:     Well, I know the name of the place was Nuremberg, Germany, but I don’t remember or recall why that site was chosen.

David:     It was because that Bavarian city back in the 1930s had spawned the early rise of the Third Reich by of these gigantic, massive Nazi propaganda rallies there. And at the war’s end, the victorious allies felt this was a fitting place to now also stage Nazism’s symbolic death.

Karen:     Oh, that’s fascinating.

David:     In our present series on the Book of Revelation, we have been covering larger sections of material than a minister normally would in a given presentation. And that’s going to be true of this. Our last visit for now anyway, based on the final book of the Bible, Revelation.

Karen:     So specifically, we will be looking at Revelation chapters 20, 21, and 22.

David:     And we’re going to examine those passages through the lens of consequences.

Karen:     Okay, Revelation chapter 20 begins, “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it over him to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. And after that, he must be set free for a short time.”

David:     So, Satan is a big-time loser. According to the Judge of the Universe, he gets a thousand-year sentence. So, how Satan had chosen to operate had real consequences.

Karen:     So, let’s go on with verse four. We’re following a certain thread here.

David:     Okay.

Karen:     Continuing reading in Revelation 20. “I saw thrones in which those who were seated were given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus. And because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

David:     That still sounds good. These believers made the difficult choice of refusing to worship the beast. And it cost them their lives. But look at what they gained. A thousand years of reigning with Jesus here on planet earth.

Karen:     So, we can conclude that there are good consequences as well as bad consequences.

David:     Yeah, I think that’s a good point to make. Just by way of clarification. In verse six it reads, “The second death has no power over them,” these martyrs. Later in verse 13, the next, the last sentence in the chapter reads this way, “The lake of fire is the second death.” So, you could rightly read the passage as these martyrs came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The lake of fire had no power over them. Okay.

Karen:     Reading from scripture again. “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations and the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people.”

The city loves you. You can almost hear, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. “But fire came down from heaven and devoured them and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Now that could generate some questions and discussions.

David:     Since God didn’t ask me for my opinion, I’m not going to comment on whether it was fair judgment on his part to have the devil tormented day and night forever and ever. But I do want to underscore again that how human beings or angels or the devil for that matter choose to live, it’s going to have real consequences.

Karen:     The last paragraph in Revelation chapter 20 reads, “Then I saw a great white throne in him who was seated on it. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

David:     All that great crowd standing before the throne, I’m kind of in my mind looking for somebody and yeah, he’s going to be there. Who do you think I’m thinking about, Karen?

Karen:     I’m not sure.

David:     Okay, I’m thinking Adolf Hitler is in that room somewhere.

Karen:     Oh, okay.

David:     And all those Nazi guys.

“The sea gave up the dead that were in it and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them and each person was judged according to what they had done. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Now we’re going to make a huge change. We’re into the next chapter.

Karen:     Here’s paragraph one of Revelation chapter 21. “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look, God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away.’”

David:     Hey, you almost want to read that all over. There are a lot of wonderful words one can read here regarding the heavenly consequences of living for the Lord. Probably my favorite passage in this section about heaven is chapter 22:1-5. Listen to Karen read with the mindset that this can be a real part of your future in mine as Christ’s followers.

Karen:     “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.”

David:     That’s the best part of all. They will reign forever and ever. Again, here’s what we’re saying reduced to a sentence.

Karen:     Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives now will have eternal consequences.

David:     Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives now will have eternal consequences. For example, Karen.

Karen:     I believe there will be people in the difficult days to come under the beast or the antichrist who think of themselves. These Christians who nevertheless would rationalized that there is no way to live without that mark every man is supposed to have. I mean without it you can’t get food or other necessities. So, what do you do? You do what you have to do. That’s a decision that gets made.

David:     Yeah. Unfortunately, they may think about the immediate and forget about the consequences. But the easy choice will not always be the wise choice.

Karen:     So, we know people today, lots of them, who say, “I sincerely think of myself as a Christian, but I have problems with church”. “Yes, I know there are some good ones, but not where I live. And just to drive there and back on Sunday plus the service would mean four hours gone out of our weekends”. This has lots of implications and applications in various ways, this kind of thinking.

David:     Yeah, and yes, have you considered the possible consequences of thinking the way you are? That’s what I would ask.

Karen:     Those defendants, the men put an on trial at Nuremberg, somewhere along the line, they had to make a decision. Each of them did. Would that person work with and eventually support a charismatic but controversial figure by the name of Adolf Hitler? And their yes carried some really serious consequences.

David:     And I shouldn’t need to say it, but Hitler was not the last such charismatic, terribly flawed leader to ask people to support him and the vision he talks about all the time because he’s supposedly doing everything for their benefit. Someone who says he’s the champion of the forgotten doesn’t make it true.

Karen:     And the biggest demigod of them all has yet to make his appearance known. But you and I have a feeling because of these revelation passages that that may not be far off.

David:     We would just say again: Be reminded that how we choose to live our lives has consequences, sometimes eternal consequences. The key truth we’ve repeated often during this series is that history is headed inexorably toward a bloody showdown between the forces of good and evil, light and darkness, Christ and the antichrist, God and Satan, which the devil wins, however only temporarily. Followers of Christ need to understand this and prepare themselves accordingly.

Karen:     Now, I’m ready to leave revelation alone for a while and I’ve told you this and you very kindly have agreed with me. But I know you feel deep inside of you that these are passages that need to be preached. People sometimes say to me, “You know, Karen your husband as a prophet. ” How does that make you feel? What do you think about it?

David:     That I’m a prophet? I’m a man who thinks and lives and attempts to speak prophetically, even though God has never verbally or even in a dream, say, given me a message to speak on his behalf. So, to call myself a prophet would be presumptuous. But what I see on the horizon, Karen, deeply concerns me. I don’t believe I’m just an alarmist and I don’t feel a need to be anything but honest with my thoughts. The truth matter is whatever they might say to you about me, I think of you as being a prophetess, but not in a preaching ministerial type of way but in terms of your writing. I think many times your writing says the very things that I am saying, but in a totally different way.

Karen:     Well, I think artists are often prophetic because there is something that moves that artistic sensibility. So, I think that’s true. It’s a kind of revealing or it’s the work of the Holy Spirit within you to take the truths that you understand to be scriptural and present them in a form that has a wider readership or a wider following. And you had been preaching for years when you were in the pastorate on the Kingdom of God. Now that topic is mentioned over and over. In fact, I counted up how many times Christ talked about the Kingdom of God. It was a substantial number. I don’t remember the figure right now. I never heard about the Kingdom of God when I was raised in very fine conservative churches. And yet it was one of his major preaching messages. So, I took your sermons that you had preached on the Kingdom of God and I put them into story format. And I do believe there’s a prophetic forth telling in their in-story form. The books, of course, are the tales of the kingdom. There are three books, books one, two and three.

David:     I’m thinking, Karen, of a story we don’t refer to that often. It’s Prima the ballerina, but it has this same feeling of be very careful what you believe because it has consequences. Do you remember the story?

Karen:     Yeah. We have two ballerinas in the story. One is Prima and the other is Carny. And Prima gets enamored with her vision in the mirror. There are practice mirrors in these studios where ballerinas learned to dance. But she becomes enamored with herself as seen in the mirror. Now the truth is this happens to a lot of performers and people in public life. There’s a public persona that gets thrust on them and then they try to live it out even though it’s sometimes not their real self, only partially part of their real self. To the point where the image in the mirror begins to dominate Prima’s life. She has to do what the image wants her to do rather than being the performer who is revealed by the image. The other character is Carny who is also an excellent ballerina. But somehow Carny realizes that her dance, her gift of movement has been given to her by the king to use for the sake of other people.

So, I’ll just read a few last paragraphs from this story. Shortly, Prima quit the dancing studio company and joined the imperialist ballet theater which specialized in gala performances and was accompanied with many stars. And indeed, she became a solo ballerina. When the orchestra played, Prima remembered her mirror image and danced out the memory she saw in her mind. The spotlight dazzled her sight. When the audience gave her standing ovations, she curtsy just as she had seen the image in the mirror do low and grandly like a queen. Yes, she was the queen of the dance. During bows, the flowers of her admirers were piled at her feet just as she had dreamed.

But she had no friends to call her own and her family never called or came to see her dance. So, she slept in a room filled with mirrors in order not to be alone. Her dressing room on a wall of mirrors, her long sleek limousine windows were also mirrors closing away glimpses of bright city. She could never be, nor did she want to be far from her own reflection. In time, even when she wanted to, even when her body needed to rest, she could not stop dancing. Her mirror image demanded the motion and though she danced beautifully, she never danced joyfully.

But Carny and the found children danced in the streets. They laughed when they bumped each other or tripped on their shoelaces. And because they had all kinds of bodies, fat ones and short ones and skinny ones and roly-poly ones, the old people who also wanted to learn to dance were not afraid to try. And because no one was a principal dancer, but all a part of the troupe, even self-conscious middle aged ladies and men who had never learned to dance caught the infectious wonder of the steps and forgot to think about how funny they looked. Much of the delight of the Dancing Master, dancing studio companies were started all over the city. Here many people learned how to hold hands and how to help one another in the steps. Here people learned to love the rhythms of the new celebrations. Here they were taught the dance of the new day rising. And whenever they looked laughingly into each other’s eyes, they saw without knowing that they saw the loving look of their most beautiful king. For he is a king after all, who takes joy when the people of his kingdom learn all the steps.

David:     Consequences. Future, present, wonderful.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.