August 19, 2020
Episode #055
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The Noah story is a Biblical reminder to live with the next catastrophic event always in mind.
Episode Transcript
David: I think it means, first of all, realizing that this is what is in store for this earth. I think even when people begin to converse about the second coming of Christ, they don’t equate that with catastrophic events.
Karen: Well and there are theological differences and positions on that as well. And I think we have maintained that we can’t really see exactly what will be. So, we need to be open to the possibility of a variety of things happening.
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David: We need to define a word, Karen, and you’re usually better at this than I am, so I’m going to put the pressure on you. Okay? The word is catastrophic.
Karen: Oh, great. An easy one.
David: I have a reason so stick with it.
Karen: There’s a rationale behind it. Okay, catastrophic. Well, I think it would be a big disaster of some kind.
David: Okay. Probably unexpected.
Karen: Yeah, unexpected. And we’re thinking of the explosion in Beirut, Lebanon, where it was a mineral cache of some sort. It just went up, blew the place apart. I think it killed 100 people. So that would be a cataclysmic event, I believe.
David: I went to my cell phone and asked what the definition was.
Karen: Oh, you did, didn’t you? So, you’re putting me up against your cell phone? Thanks a lot.
David: I’m just reading the few words that were there, but you’re doing well. Sudden, great damage, or great suffering. So yes, that’s Beirut situation. Certainly, an incredible suffering. So many people injured. This visit, I want to look at several examples in scripture of catastrophic events.
Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast, featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains . Here’s David and Karen Mains .
David: Noah lived a long time ago. His story is repeated in the initial book of the Bible. The last paragraph of Genesis chapter five mentions his name. And then Karen, I want you to read from chapter six, which starts to unfold his story. But first, let me just read a statement before that paragraph that describes the kind of man Noah was.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. That’s a great picture.
Karen: What a commendation. Yeah, extraordinary epitaph on a gravestone, wouldn’t it?
David: Yeah, now you’re going to read a paragraph about the culture of the day.
Karen: Well, let me start with verse 11 in chapter six.
“Now, the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.” I give you the chills. “God saw how corrupt the earth had become for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.” Oh, what a sad statement.
“So, God said to Noah, ‘I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. So, make yourself an ark of Cyprus wood.”
And that’s the story that follows the creation of the ark and the flood.
David: Yeah, and there’s also a statement, I think, at the end of the paragraph about the obedience of Noah.
Karen: “Noah did everything just as God commanded him.”
David: Yeah, so we have a corrupt culture and by way of contrast, we have a righteous man. And in fact, that’s how Noah is described all through the Bible as a righteous man.
Just an example of this. This is generations later, the prophet Ezekiel, and he’s talking about, again, the corruption of the earth. the nation.
Karen: This is one of the Old Testament prophets.
David: “And he says, the Word of the Lord came to me, ‘Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful, and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, even if these three men were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the sovereign Lord.’”
So, there’s that word righteous. Now the three men, he’s going to name them. In fact, he will name them again in the same chapter and say the same thing about them.
Karen: Now what does he say, even if they were alive?
David: If they were alive, and they cried out to the Lord, Noah, Daniel, and Job. So, Noah is an incredible company. Job is a phenomenal old saint and Daniel. I mean, who’s going to match Daniel? So, Noah is included with them. So, when you think Noah, you have to think violent, corrupt culture, and then you have to think about an outstanding individual who is walking with the Lord. Now people who listen to us are familiar with the story of Noah, and I think when they hear the story they almost automatically go to a children’s tale.
Karen: Right, yeah, it becomes one of the classic stories of the Old Testament that we tell to our children in Sunday school, Noah and the ark.
David: Yeah, and all those different animals are coming in and I picture our little kids playing with the elephants in the dress…
Karen: …and their little toy ark.
David: And if adults think about it, they tend to try to figure out, was this a worldwide flood? You know, did it cover the whole of the globe?
Karen: Or did it cover just all the earth that those people were aware of at that time, or local?
David: Yeah, and then they asked kind of dumb questions like, did Noah have a koala bear on the ark? None of those are important to us right now.
Karen: Well, there is one little thing I’d like to insert here because I’ve been reading books on mythology, and many of them, ancient stories from all cultures around the world, have a flood story. It’s almost in the DNA. So, we can pretty safely conclude that at some time there was a cataclysmic flood that covered much of the earth, or at least the well-known world at that time. So, it got recorded in all of these historical mythological accounts.
David: Yes, and you’re not saying it’s mythological?
Karen: No, I’m not.
David: The familiar story of Noah unfolds in Genesis 7 through 9. Basically, it’s talking about a family of eight. Noah, his wife, they have three sons, and the wives of the sons, they go into the ark, the ark is closed, and then it’s a seven-day period of waiting, then the rain begins. And it comes down heavy, strong, and continual. It rains for many, many days. In fact, it’s not just the rain, Karen.
Karen: What? All the springs of the great deep burst forth as the floodgates of the heaven were opened, so there seems to be a flooding from up beneath the earth, or into the seas that overflowed the banks of the boundaries. And then this continuous rain. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. I don’t think it was just a drizzle. I think it was one of those huge rains that just washes stuff away.
David: Does this fit into the catastrophic category?
Karen: I think it’s catastrophic.
David: There’s no question. And I want to go back to that definition. It says sudden great damage and great suffering. And I think it’s important to now think in those terms because this is a horrifying story.
Karen: Yes, families work quite about. It is extraordinary to think about it. But let’s also remember that Scripture tells us that they were corrupt. They had allowed themselves to become wicked people.
David: Yeah, anyway, this is one of several such stories I want to refer to this morning. Jesus refers to this story of Noah. And this is in Matthew chapter 24:34-37. He’s talking about the end of the earth and his return.
“As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage up to the day, Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.”
So, what is the picture you get?
Karen: What’s people going about their ordinary living? I mean, that phrase comes up a lot in these passages, doesn’t it? Is they’re not attending to the possibility of any kind of cataclysmic event. And of course, we don’t until it’s upon us. But this is this ordinariness of life going on, the eating, the drinking, the, you know, in our culture shopping, grocery shopping…
David: Watching television.
Karen: Watching television. Yeah, right. Those things are just happening. Yeah.
David: So, all of a sudden it happens and there’s great pain involved. This is a traumatic time, catastrophic way beyond what happened in Beirut. Now, Jesus says almost the same thing, but adds a second picture in the passage that I’ve given you to read.
Karen: This is from Luke 17. “And so, Jesus says, just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the Ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot.” This is another reference.
David: And it’s out of Genesis again. This is Abraham and Lot. Yeah, go ahead.
Karen: “People were eating and drinking, buying, and selling, planting, and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.”
What a forecast.
David: So, again, we’re getting that same catastrophic way beyond anything that we think of in terms of our day. This is huge. What is taking place. First it was water and now it’s fire. And now I’m going to go to the writer Peter.
This is his second epistle and I’m going to read again how he combines these with the third catastrophic event that I’d like to relate to.
“First of all,” says Peter, “you must understand that in the last day scoffers will come scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming, he promised? Ever since our fathers died everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water and by these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Don’t forget this one thing dear friends with the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow keeping his promise as some understand slowness. He is patient with you and not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar. The elements will be destroyed by fire and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”
So, we’re talking about a flood that destroys the earth. We’re talking about Sodom and Gomorrah being just wiped out instantaneously by fire from heaven. And then we’re talking about, it’s even beyond catastrophic. You know, the whole world this time not water but fire.
“Since everything will be destroyed in this way what kind of people ought you to be?”
That’s the question that Peter asked, and he answers it. But I’m going to try to answer it ourselves.
Karen: Okay let’s do a little thought process here.
David: And knowing that fiery ruin is in the world’s future, today’s believers should emulate the example of righteous Noah. We need more noise around.
Karen: Yeah.
David: And I’m saying that not to others. I’m saying that to myself.
Karen: Right. So, what does that mean? And that’s a question I think that you’re asking us to ask of ourselves, but we’d like our listeners to involve themselves in this mental exercise.
David: I think it means, first of all, realizing that this is what is in store for this earth. I think even when people begin to converse about the second coming of Christ, they don’t equate that with catastrophic events.
Karen: Well and there are theological differences and positions on that as well. And I think we have maintained that we can’t really see exactly what will be. So, we need to be open to the possibility of a variety of things happening.
David: One of the things that we have to be aware of is that destruction by fire will be a part of what is that last day scenario. I’m thinking, Karen, in terms of studying so many times in the book of Revelation and pictures that the apostle John shares.
“The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this. Their breast plates were fire red, dark blue and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and sulfur.”
Now hear this first.
“A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.”
A third. In fact, in the earlier chapter you get that same picture of fire and a third of the grass, a third of mankind. It’s terrible, terrible destruction.
Karen: In one of the principles, we learn as far as studying the word is that when something is mentioned once we need to pay attention to it, but when it’s mentioned over and over and over and over again, we really need to pay attention to it. So, that’s what you’ve been pointing out how frequently the scriptures point to a time of cataclysm such as the earth has never known that will be destructive. And of course, being in the middle of this COVID-19 worldwide pandemic with its accompanying economic collapse and our whole way of living being altered. I mean we are really being altered in the way that we live. I think it’s a time for us to begin to consider cataclysm and then what it means to be a righteous person in the midst of that cataclysm.
Karen: Yeah, pandemics are cataclysmic.
Karen: Right, exactly.
David: It touches people profoundly. Jesus says in the last days there will be pestilences. That’s the same word as the pandemic. And he doesn’t say one, he says it’s S plural.
Karen: And that’s what our scientists seem to be inferring is that this COVID-19 is just one of many kinds of things that may rise up and circle the globe. So, what do we do? Hide our head, go under the covers?
David: Well, I would go right to scripture. But I can talk about it without saying what the apostle John says. I have found in terms of my own life I’m trying to unclutter my life. I’m in my 80s and I’m finding that I’m being drawn to prayer with others. And I’m being drawn to scripture on my own and prayer on my own. And I’m saying, “Lord, in these days help me to know what it is you’re saying in your word.” I don’t want to hold myself up as some great saint. I don’t feel that way. In fact, I feel very immature in a lot of ways, even in my praying. But I am praying more than I have ever prayed before in my life and that’s part of what I think needs to be done by all of us. We have to say secondary things I put aside. You know, and the Lord in some ways is taking a lot of that away. He’s taking away the sports, he’s taking away a lot of the theater, he’s taking away the movies.
Karen: Take up a great deal of Americans’ time and American Christendom’s time.
David: And what do we replace that with? I think it’s time for all of us to say, “Okay, God, I need to draw closer to you. I need to be like righteous Noah.” I think of Noah and one of the things that we don’t really understand, what a difficult road he had to walk.
Karen: You’re going against the entire.. You counterculture in every way.
David: Anybody who’s seen the size of the ark that was reproduced here. The states you look at that say, “Oh my goodness, that is huge and building.”
Karen: The museum of the Ark.
David: Yeah, just building not only in our day, but Noah and his family. Whatever he hired out, I don’t know. But people knew, people knew that he was a man who was righteous, but they also, I’m sure, call him kind of nutty. That’s nutty Noah. And there’s a sense in which, as we talk these things over, we’re going to be classified in people’s minds as kind of a cook case.
Karen: And I’ve seen you really give hours. You’re being very careful not to say how much time you’re spending, but I know it’s huge amounts of time in prayer every day. And I think it’s made you so tender spiritually. I mean, you’re often talk about something that means something to you. You fill with tears. You can hear it on these podcasts where you get kind of choked up. But I think that’s an evidence of the spirit of the Lord working in your life and giving you a compassion and love as you seek righteousness. And one of the things I’d like to suggest is that when we think of righteous people, righteous Noah, we often think of, you’ve mentioned, the man in the street corner saying, you know, “You’re a sinful people, repent of your sins.” And that’s part of righteousness.
David: Yes.
Karen: But the part we don’t often attach to righteousness is this overwhelming love and compassion for the world and its failings. And the people of the world who have not experienced God’s presence. And often that’s the people of the church. I mean, it’s so easy to have a form of godliness, but not the power thereof. I mean, that’s the thing I’m afraid of for my own life, that I will have the outward demeanor of Christendom, doing the right things, not doing the wrong things. But not have the power of it in my life. The power to not only be good, but to do good in ways that are counterculture.
David: So, you’re saying it’s very conceivable that Noah was not a fire breather as much as he was a very gentle, beautiful, loving person?
Karen: I think he spoke about righteousness. And I think that there was an example of righteousness in his life. And that just in my mind, I could be way off base here.
David: We don’t know.
Karen: But I know holy people. And you know, they are extraordinary in their Christ likeness. And so, Christ did speak counterculturally. But he also, I just did a study through scripture on this, much of his message, much, and I would say a predominant amount of his message was that we were to be concerned about the poor and the powerless and the outcast. Now that to me is compassion and love. So, I think that intertwines with the finger pointing and the judgment. I’m not discarding those.
David: There are times when there’s a prophetic word that needs to be said.
Karen: Very appropriate. But if it’s not linked also with the tears of the prophet, the weeping prophet, if it’s not also linked with the fact that we just are in love, we are in love with God’s creation and we grieve for it.
David: Yes, that’s well said.
Karen: Then something is wrong with that kind of righteousness, or at least in my poor human opinion, things wrong with that kind of righteousness. And I don’t want to be that kind of righteous person who sits in judgment on others. I want to be the tenderhearted one who loves them despite the error of their ways.
David: How does this affect us? I would say that I’ve mentioned prayer and I haven’t gone beyond that and as soon as I examine what I’m saying, I’m saying I’m outside of the grasp of where most people are. Most people are not going to have the opportunity to spend as much time in prayer in scripture as I do. So, I need to somehow lower the bar for people to get on track with what is being said. I’m going to give a second suggestion and once again, I’m going to say this is a minister trying to…
Karen: Who’s being paid to spend time together, right?
David: I’m supported by people.
Karen: Right.
David: So, I feel strongly about memorizing scripture. I would say to people go to this passage in Peter.
Karen: What gives a reference again?
David: 2 Peter 3, and start with verse 11 and memorize through verse 14. “Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. So then dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.”
Karen: Beautiful.
David: Yeah, it is beautiful and to put it to memory is wonderful. But I don’t think many people are going to do that.
Karen: Give the reference one more time.
David: Okay, it’s 2 Peter 3, and it’s verse 11 through verse 14.
Karen: I have a suggestion. I’ve got my hand up.
David: Good. Rescue me because I haven’t come up with something that is all that practical.
Karen: Ok. Here’s the ideal. Its memorizing scripture. So, it’s in your heart. But that’s hard work for many of us. So, what I do is, if I have a passage like that, I will do it with this passage is, I take a card three by five card or something five by six card and I write out the passage on that card. And then as I’m walking and doing my walk when I’m alone, you and I’ve been trying to walk together, but as I’m walking alone, I’ll read those words over and over and over again.
David: That’s a great idea. Everybody can do that.
Karen: Everyone can do that. Or I stick it in the car. You know, we do a lot of waiting in the car. We wait to pick up kids from school or you know, wait in the car often say, “I’ll wait for you in the car.” But while that waiting is going on, have a card with that all written out on it and go over it again. You might focus your mind on what it means. Let it speak to you. Let it transform you inwardly.
David: Yeah, your walking partner Margaret used to do that.
Karen: Oh Margaret.
David: She was like a walking Bible.
Karen: She had memorized whole portions of scriptures. So, as she was memorizing, we would walk in the morning and I told her, “What are you memorizing now, Margaret?” And so, she said, “Oh, good. Thank you.” She was Irish, a little Irish accent. “Oh, let me tell you what I memorized now.” So that was our walk. It was wonderful. Just absolutely wonderful.
David: Beautiful, beautiful woman.
Karen: Beautiful woman. So, I think that’s something people can do. I have one other suggestion. Do we have time for it?
David: Yeah, go for it.
Karen: One of the things I work with all the time, because I have a tendency to be very self-satisfied. Doing good.
David: That’s another topic. Confession. Go ahead.
Karen: Is to say, “Lord, examine me. You examine me and you point out in me the places where I’m in error that I’m not seeing myself.” And because I think I’m a willing participant into this, he’s very gentle in his reminders of the way I’ve used my tongue. I mean, the tongue’s a sure indicator of where your heart is. Scripture teaches this. Or the way I have wasted time. And sometimes I need to learn to waste time and in leisure because I’m pretty structured and I go strong. But to waste it in a really profitable, meaningful way. So, then I ask for that prompt. And if I’m not listening, then he can give me a kick in the knees, you know, proverbial, so to speak. So that he will get my attention. And he does do that because he loves me. So that’s that inward examination. Where am I not righteous? Where am I not being righteous in holiness and in love that you need to call my attention to? And please do it in a way so that I don’t get by with this any longer than I should.
David: Yeah, good.
The catastrophic events will come.
Karen: The cataclysmic events will come too.
David: Yes. The Noah story is a biblical reminder to live with the next catastrophic event always in mind. We’re aware of it. We understand. Even so, we say, “Come quickly, Lord Jesus.”
Karen: So, I would suggest to our listeners that they take up the things that we’ve said. I mean, the COVID-19 pandemic worldwide, none of us have lived through anything like this before, is a reminder as far as God is concerned. And best that we can read his mind, that we need to be preparing ourselves for the cataclysm that could be in our lifetime. That is a head that scripture speaks of. So how are we going to do that?
David: Thanks for your help.
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