David:     Growing up in the church, Karen, I recall often hearing sermons about judgment day. Was that your experience also?

Karen:     I don’t know if it was particularly about judgment day as much as it was that we would be judged. You’re thinking more end of time sort of judgment day.

David:     Yeah, that’s a great sobering time. I want to talk with you about whether that’s true of the church today or not, okay?

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Since this century began, we’re no longer in the 1900s, we’re in the twenty hundreds and into that maybe 22 years almost. Can you recall hearing a sermon about future judgment at all? We’re talking about a long time back.

Karen:     Yeah, right. Nothing that comes to mind right away. You know David, I think there was a shift from emphasis on human sin toward human growth. Some of that may be influenced by the modern psychology, but I do remember an article that I read that had the headline, “Whatever Happened to Sin.” So, I think that has something to do with what we’re talking about today.

David:     Do you believe, Karen, that some future day you and I will stand before God, the righteous judge, and give an account for the way we’ve lived our lives?

Karen:     Well, I certainly believe that’s what scripture teaches.

David:     Does this frighten you?

Karen:     Not necessarily. Because I think the reality of that judgment is something, whether if in our conscious mind or not, that sincere and practicing Christians work out in their lives almost on a daily basis. Have I erred today? Is there something in my life I’m not looking at that I really need to look at that’s a personality or character flaw?

So, I think there’s sort of a process that we go through that maybe eliminates the concept in our minds of understanding that a great day of judgment is coming.

David:     I personally believe that every last individual is going to be judged by God, Christians and non-Christians and that’s something that I have not emphasized in my ministry nearly enough. In fact, I can’t remember even writing a sermon on that topic for I don’t know how long and that makes me feel very guilty. I want to talk about it this time as we visit together. I just want to read some words. This comes from a very large volume and illustrated Bible dictionary.

There are few points at which the teaching of the Bible is more sharply in conflict with the assumptions of our age than in its teachings concerning God’s future judgment of all men. It is correspondingly one of the most serious contemporary expressions of Christian intellectual and spiritual capitulation that this particular should be so little reflected in current preaching and writing.

The world has been permitted at this point only too clearly to squeeze the church into its own mold. Thus, a theological commentator can complain with full justice that today the notion of final judgment figures so little in the theology and preaching of the church. This theological neglect is the more inexcusable in that this century has witnessed an unprecedented recovery of the biblical eschatological perspective. In other words, the teachings about the last days.

This particular aspect, however, of eschatology—the future divine judgment quite unwarranted, has been largely left on one side. In other words, it’s just not people aren’t talking about it. It’s not a popular thing to talk about. That’s true of me. It’s probably unconscious because I’m always looking for things to minister to people regarding but that’s one of the areas where I’ve been very neglectful.

Karen:     So how do we correct that?  How do we make a difference?

David:     Well, I’m going to correct it. I think what triggered it, Karen, was the other day there was a communion service. It’s not a church where we’ve been all that much and so it may not be characteristic of all the times they do it. However, I’ve been in communion services in a number of churches and it’s done in a very casual way. In fact, churches today when you go into the sanctuary you pick up a little plastic thing of grape juice and then there’s a little wafer like in the top so they don’t have to pass it out anymore. Now you just stick it in your pocket and then at a given time they kind of take it and you peel that back and it’s lost its soberness.

Karen:     Holiness maybe.

David:     That would be a better word. I don’t want to be critical in a sense but there isn’t that sense of examining yourself lest you bring judgment upon the way you’re living.

Karen:     Kind of a pro forma. We’re supposed to be doing this having communion, but we don’t really know why anymore.

David:     And it’s not the fault of the people as much as it is the fault of leadership which is people like me or like us if you want to be truthful about it.

Karen:     So again, how do we correct this?

David:     Well, I think for me it’s saying “I need to put this more into my life.” I haven’t thought that much about judgment. I’m not somebody who says okay I got colossal sins in my life. I can list my sins without any problem. I’ve done that. I write about on paper and then I hide it so you can’t see it.

Karen:     I probably know about them anyway.

David:     You do. You know about it. There’s no question about that. But I don’t think that sin and the ramifications of sin which means judgment to stand before an almighty God and have his understanding of righteousness and justice and have him proclaim what that is leading to. That’s a very sobering thought.

So, I think one of the problems may have been that preachers said it not in a loving gracious way in terms of our background. They said it almost in a preaching high voice, fist shaking, “Look out it’s coming” kind of thing.

So, it’s not as though those past days were necessarily the epitome of what it should have been. But there was a sense of the fear of God that has been lost in today’s world.

Karen:     It’s interesting to me we were raised in non-liturgical churches and then during a certain period of our lives became part of liturgical churches and the liturgical church has a church calendar that we were unfamiliar with from our background.

David:     You want to just explain when you say liturgical that may not make sense.

Karen:     It will be Anglican churches or Episcopal churches.

David:     And it means it follows a set pattern.

Karen:     A set liturgy week after week. Now things change within that liturgy but there is an outline. That’s kind of the same.

So, in that church calendar and that tradition there are two distinct periods that are set aside for an extended time of self-examination, confession, and making yourself right before the Lord. And that is the season of Advent which I never knew that that’s really what it was for according to the church calendar.

David:     That means coming.

Karen:     Coming of Christ. So, it’s not just the anticipatory Christmas-is-coming feeling that you’re supposed to sort of gear your mind and your emotions toward it. It’s will I be ready when we celebrate this extraordinary coming to earth of the one who was both God and man.

The other season is the season of Lent. And that’s the period that leads up to the Easter celebration to the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ. And when I was in those systems because that was part of their liturgy, even the words that you read in church every Sunday morning were framed within that context. So those who don’t have that then have to establish a sort of regularity in their own spiritual discipline.

Now we do this daily. I’m looking to my soul and take some time to spend before the Lord when I’m hurried and overloaded such as this last week has been with all good things. It’s much harder to say now where have I erred? Did I say things I shouldn’t have said when we were in the family gathering? And then you just begin to listen. And then the Holy Spirit gives you a nudge or you recall something that you think, “Oh dear, I wish I hadn’t said that or done that.” You know, I need to make that right or I need to at least confess to the Lord that I was out of step here as far as His righteousness.

David:     So self-examination is something that the church is helping people with. I presume there is that same not nearly as schedules and emphasis in some people’s ministry. I have to confess that in terms of all the things I preach on, I preach on this almost never the idea that someday we will stand before God.

In fact, some people would say, “No, we don’t have to. We’ll never be judged by Him. That’s only the sinners.” I don’t think that’s what Scripture teaches.

Let me just give a couple of verses here. Romans 14:10, “You then, why do you judge your brother or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.”  So that’s the day that is coming.

Here’s 2 Corinthians 5:10. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one might receive what is due Him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Hebrews 9:27, I won’t read anymore. “Man is destined to die once and after that to face…

Karen:     …judgment.”

David:     Yeah, exactly. Which means that if, as a minister, like Mains, if you’re not emphasizing these things, not overly emphasizing, but if you’re not saying them, if you’re not bringing that sober truth to people’s understanding, you’ve dropped off a certain amount that is necessary to be a part of your ministry. And I’m guilty in that. I’m confessing that in a sense.

Karen:     David, I’m thinking that one of the roles of clergy are a very spiritually formed people. I mean, they have matured and grown and some of that’s been very intentional, very deliberate on their part, is to remind people that we have an inner guide, the exterior guide is the Scripture.

David:     Yes.

Karen:     And then, the Holy Spirit is the interior guide, and he brings to mind, he’s very, very good at this, and we’re often very, very good at ignoring it. But very, very good at reminding us of our errors.

And so we have to set time aside to say, “Where have I been in the wrong?” “Is there anything that I have done or said that I should not have done and said? And then you listen to the Holy Spirit. And I feel a nudge right in my breastbone on the inside. It’s kind of crazy that it becomes physical more than my mind. There’s a push that says, “Karen, you were really wrong in the way you behaved, or you were wrong in the words that you spoke that was a form of gossip that you haven’t come to terms with.”

David:     Your attitude towards someone.

Karen:     Your attitude towards someone. This is a creature that’s made in my image. And I love that man woman or child. And you are to be an expression of that. He’s very, very clear about that. And that’s why these are sort of built into that church calendar.

So, we either put that into practice ourselves because we see that it’s necessary that scripture teaches us about these things, or we have people from the pulpit who remind us that we need to be doing that. And hopefully we have both in our life.

David:     And if the people in the pulpit feel strongly their own sin, which I’ve experienced that kind of avoided because that’s getting personal for me, then we got real problems. All through the church, whether you’re talking Protestant or Catholic, the sins of the clergy are one of the reasons I believe that this is not taught because it’s just too personal for them.

Karen:     So, we’ll give two illustrations of that, the sins of the clergy. The Southern Baptist denomination is the largest Protestant churches in the country. I can’t remember recently which periodical, it was probably the Atlantic monthly did a focus on the fact that in the Southern Baptist convention, in that large denominational body of people that many ministers had not been called to an account for a rampant kind of child sexual abuse that was going on. It began to come to light. But it was something that had been known by leadership that had not been dealt with. And it is a very difficult thing to deal with. You’ve got people who are in the ministry who’ve been ordained and all of a sudden you find out things about them but it has to be dealt with.

And the other was the revelation in the Catholic Church. We had a child sexual abuse among the priesthood. I had an article I clipped, I think it was in Time Magazine something like that I can’t remember. This is years back when this began to come up, that showed pictures of all the priest in Illinois who have been accused or had admitted to child sexual abuse. David, it was a page and a half small little photos. And we’ve been now just to think that this would point and for it to have something be that systemic. The leadership had to know about it and they just did not deal with or did not know how to deal with it.

David:     And the reason the Southern Baptist has come to the fore is because they’re the biggest of the denominations.

Karen:     Because the women have started speaking up as far as child sexual abuse. Really.

David:     But you also have pretty strong awareness that this is all through the Protestant Church. And it’s a good reason why I guess you don’t preach on judgment because if you’re doing that, you’re pointing a finger to people but at the same time pointing it at yourself.

Karen:     If you’re guilty of these.

David:     It’s a lot easier to talk other topics. And to some degree I would say that’s true me. Every time I preach a sermon and it’s about me, I tend to be kind and softer or otherwise I ignore it. I just don’t speak about those areas, but this is a huge, huge problem in our society.

Karen:     So, when we talk about a movement of God nationally, you’re the one who loves to study and look at the possibilities of the spiritual revivals of the past and what brings them about; and what has happened before each revival occurs. This is a time when we need revival

David:     It’s very difficult as a leader to speak harshly in an area where you know you’re a flawed person. But I think again I have to say, “Okay I need to know how I’m going to address this now.” But I have to work on messages that say to people this is a very sobering thought. Just because you said the sinner’s prayer doesn’t mean that you won’t stand before the judgment seat of the Lord. That’s something that all of us are going to go through. And we have a God who is loving and gracious and wise and knows everything. You couldn’t ask for a better judge. But that day is coming. And it’s not as though it’s all in the past and because I can’t remember it, or I try not to remember it. It’s not going to come up. It is also true which is wonderful that we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins. And how those will come up in that day of judgment? I don’t know. It may be that he doesn’t talk about him because of the beauty of what his son has done on our behalf.

Karen:     Well, that rest of that scriptures, “You will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” What a promise. I mean that’s extraordinary and that’s the thing we need to long for. And that’s often the thing we need to pray that we will long for. Is to experience that remarkable interaction between human and God where we confess our sins, and we feel that he has cleansed us from all unrighteousness as we confess. It is extraordinary promise.

David:     I have long in my ministry preached about revival and I thought, “Why hasn’t this happened?” And I honestly feel that one of the reasons it hasn’t happened and one of the reasons why the church doesn’t talk about it is this is a massive problem.

Karen:     Their own sin is a massive problem.

David:     It’s a massive problem throughout the clergy. I would say it’s a problem in my life. It’s not a massive problem. It’s not something that I think every day my whole mental life. There’s this huge backlog that hasn’t been cleared in my life. I am a sinner like everybody’s a sinner. I say little like, “Oh my golly, how could I be so much of a sinner?” That characterizes me.

Karen:     Well, so we have technologies that can encourage our sinfulness. And no one knows about it.

David:     Oh yes.

Karen:     You can watch pornography on your laptop.

David:     Or you can hear profanity.

Karen:     Everything in our stage of development, in our time, using the technology is something that can encourage our hidden sins. So, we need to come to terms with that. We need to put away the things that tempt us. We need to have accountability say to someone we love and trust. This is a big error in my life. Will you ask me how I’m doing? Ask me how I’m doing even if I get angry with you? Don’t give up. And then find places where you can confess that sin either in your small group. Can be I need to make an appointment with my minister? That’s really hard to do, but I’m battling with the sin. Will you pray with me? I want to confess it to a trusted spiritual advisor. You are one. I mean any of these things are available.

David:     Setting up an accountability…

Karen:     …relationship.

David:     All those are huge steps forward. And part of it is dialogue between clergy and congregations. Is this working? Does the communion service work the way we’re presently doing it? And I think if they would talk with lay people, lay people with him and hall for a while. But if they can get them down to what they really feel is that communion is not working the way you want it to work. It’s hurried and superficial and…

Karen:     …that’s stuck and it’s an add-on because we think we’re supposed to be doing this but don’t really know why and you know that sort of stuff.

David:     How do we make it different? And how do we bring the church to the place where she is holy and that she is different from the rest of the world?

The good thing is that I heard often about judgment when I was growing up. The bad thing was it maybe wasn’t done in a loving way. It was more the fist-clenched and raised voice and come to the front. If you want to get forgiven, you come down here to the sinner’s bench. I don’t think that day is going to come back. But I think lovingly addressing the problem directly and giving people opportunity to respond and to weep and say, “Oh God, help me. You know, this thing has a hold in my life.

I think that day is necessary in the church. Well, it’s certainly you talked about the Roman Catholic priest and the Southern Baptist. It’s all through the church.

Karen:     Okay.

David:     And it’s one of the reasons we don’t see the movement of the Holy Spirit the way we want.

Karen:     And I think that we don’t build into our gatherings time where the preaching is given and then we just let people sit in silence. And let the silence go on for long enough.

David:     Because the Holy Spirit is good.

Karen:     Because the Holy Spirit is good at applying these things to our lives.

David:     Thoughts about a future judgment should have a profound effect on the way we live our lives so that the whole teaching of scripture about judgment, judgment day is coming. I’m going to work on that in terms of my own ministry. You help me say, “You know you said you’re going to do that. I haven’t heard a sermon.”

Karen:     You ask me permission to ask me to?

David:     That’s exactly right. Lord help us all. Help us bring about that beautiful day of the reviving of the church and love and tears…

Karen:     And intention.

David:     Yeah, and the day when we are the people you want us to be. Let it happen Jesus. Let it happen in us.

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