David:   Karen, I’m going to get you to define some words because I want to use them later. And it was such that I had to look up at least one of them. So, are you ready? They’re all words starting with the letter I.

Karen:   Words starting with the letter I. What the heck are we doing here?

David:   First word is invisible.

Karen:   Oh, I don’t like that. It means you can’t see it. Can’t be seen.

David:   Okay, this is a little bit harder. Indomitable.

Karen:   I would say it’s someone who can’t be overcome. Something that can’t be overcome easily.

David:   Yeah, they don’t give up quickly.

Karen:   Don’t get someone who doesn’t give up quickly.

David:   Okay, the last one is insidious.

Karen:   Insidious. Something that is not overtly negative or evil but is underneath. It’s the subtext, the evil subtext that lies underneath a person’s demeanor or their words. Insidious. Did it come close at all?

David:   You’re very close. Yeah, it’s treacherous.

Karen:   Treacherous.

David:   There’s a sense of slowness to it. These are all words that are describing our enemy. Okay, so I just wanted to make sure people understood what they were, because if I listened as a new person, then those words were used, I’d think, that’s a little bit beyond me. I have to look that up, but I probably wouldn’t. Okay, we’ll talk about it and we’re going to put it in the context of our great enemy, Satan.

Karen:   Okay, wow.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife noted author, Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:   What triggered this in me, Karen, was I got a very disturbing phone call the other day. It was from Commonwealth Edison, supposedly it was from them, and the voice on the other end of the line said, “You haven’t paid your bill for some reason in the last two months.” And I said, “That’s not true.” I paid my bill and they said, “Well, you haven’t paid it.” And then they named the amount. And I was getting my checkbook out. I did. I paid that. And then they gave the next month’s amount. And I said “I paid that one as well. In fact, wait just a minute.” And I got my bank statement out and my bank statement said that the first check, not the second one yet, but the first check had already come through. I said, “It’s come through.” “Doesn’t matter”, the voice said, “we didn’t get those checks, and we are going to turn your power off in an hour if you don’t send us money in accord with what we said.” Well, I’ve never had a call like that before. And I said, “You know, you’re joking, aren’t you? I always pay my Commonwealth Edison bill.” “Oh, no, this is not joking at all. You’re going to, we’ve tried to contact you before. You haven’t been…” And I’m thinking “What is”?

Karen:   And about this time your wife walks into the room. Yeah, you’re kind of wondering because… And you’re flustered and getting upset because you’re not being heard.

David:   And in fact, I said to the guy, “Do you have a supervisor? Because I want to talk to that individual. I’ve been a customer for years.” And so, they gave me a new name and he said, “I’ve looked at your record and you are a very good customer. You’ve always paid on time, but these two bills have not been paid.” I said, “That’s why I wanted to talk to you because the first person was quite rude, and I have paid those bills. I’m right up to date. I’ve never been late with a payment.”

Karen:   And your wife says, “Hang up, David. It’s a scam.”

David:   I’ve never had a scam called me before.

Karen:   Hang up, David. It’s a scam. They’re trying to take your money. And you know why your wife knew that? Because we get a magazine for retired people, AARP. And they do a lot of articles on scamming older generation because hundreds of thousands of dollars have been taken from people who are older just like we are.

David:   Well, they were trying to get my-

Karen:   They were trying to get your money, honey.

David:   And finally, I did. I just said, “I’m going to hang up” And then I called Commonwealth Edison. And I said, “Would you tell me if I’m paid up on my account”? “Yes, you’re paid up.” They looked at it immediately. I said, “Well, I got a call and here’s the number that I was.” It was an initial call on my cell phone and then I called the number and then I talked with these cameras. Those dirty guys. I’m thinking, I’m 83 years old and that bothered me. But what if, what if I were single? What if my wife hadn’t walked in when she did? Who reads the articles? I probably should read. But it just was very, very aggravating to me. It got me to the place where I was thinking that’s a little bit unfair. I wasn’t ready for somebody to lie to me or take advantage of me and then on top of that try to rob me.

Karen:   Yeah, well we don’t really run in that crowd very much. You know, not that kind of a crowd. So, you weren’t used to it.

David:   Well, I’m a preacher, so I immediately put it into a kind of a business.

Karen:   You spiritualized, you made a metaphor out of it, right? Yeah, I did. A living metaphor.

David:   This is 2 Corinthians 2 verse 11, the Apostle Paul, and he says, “I’m writing the way I’m writing to you, which was quite strong, quote, in order that Satan might not outwit us for we are not unaware of his schemes.” And that’s when I began to look up, you know, here’s my opponent and I really haven’t given them as much credit as I should, Satan, because Satan is invisible. Satan is indomitable. He doesn’t quit. He just keeps coming and coming. He is insidious in that, he is sly, and he is crafty and he is treacherous. And I’m thinking, “Oh man, I haven’t given him the creeps that I should probably.”

Karen:   So, what we want our listeners to do right now is to take the scammer idea and as we talk about the enemy and his approaches, just think of that scam phone call. You’ll have it right there. Someone’s trying to do you dirt, they’re trying to deceive you, they’re trying to take precious things from you or hard-earned funds from you or whatever it is.

David:   Trying to pretend to be your friend.

Karen:   Right, trying to pretend to be your friend. Right.

David:   Yeah. Jesus said about Satan, Karen, these are very strong words. “There is no truth in him. When he lies…”, oh, this is a great line, Jesus. It’s a funny line, but it’s also very strong lines, “when Satan lies, he speaks his native language.” Okay. That’s strong.

Karen:   That is a wonderful, wonderful phrase.

David:   For he is a liar and the father of lies. I have a sense that maybe someone listening to us would say, “Satan. I mean, you’re talking about the devil? Nobody talks about the devil.”

Karen:   He’s a joke, isn’t he? Kind of the red head, the red cloak, the horns, the trident, you know.

David:   The truth is, Scripture presents him as a very real being.

Karen:   Beautiful. He was a beautiful angel.

David:   We say the Lord’s Prayer every day together and we say, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil or deliver us from the evil one.”

Karen:   Right.

David:   So, we have very strong feelings about Satan being real and being, again, this insidious, invisible, indomitable force that we’re wrestling against all the time. I was reading Karen in Sprague. Now, that’s the name most people wouldn’t know. He’s American.

Karen:   This is from the theological library.

David:   Yeah, I was reading on a different topic – lectures on revival. This is almost a classic book.

Karen:   So, when did he write what?

David:   The second great awakening was in the early 1800s and he’s writing probably 1830 something like that. This is really looking back.

Karen:   Okay.

David:   So, when I read his words…

Karen:   Little archaic to us.

David:   Yeah. He’s basically saying when people become new believers, we have to treat them with great care and give them warnings because their world is going to be different now. And one of those warnings he says is that, well, I’ll actually read it, read some of his words here. Remind that new believer also that quote, “He has a powerful invisible enemy to contend with, the enemy of all good against the influence of those whose wiles no condition in life can secure him.” So, he’s saying you got to be careful about the enemy. Now this is the part that I wanted to read. “It is true of every Christian”, you’re to say to these new believers, “that there is some one sin to which he is more inclined than any other. What that sin will be in any particular case may depend on the previous moral habits of the individual or on the circumstances in which he is placed or on some original infirmity for as bodily disease is most likely to seat itself in the part which is originally the weakest so the depravity of the heart usually concentrates its energies in some passion or appetite which is marked by the greatest degree of natural perverseness. He therefore who ascertains in his own case what that sin is and who regards it as the most formidable enemy to be encountered in his conflict and succeeds in gaining victory over it accomplishes much in the way of his sanctification.”

Karen:   Okay, let’s de-theologize the word.

David:   Well and also bring it up to date as far as the language is concerned but it’s very strong when it’s writing.

Karen:   Oh, it’s extraordinarily strong. So, what he’s talking about is what I have learned just really the last 15 or 20 years is called a prevailing sin. It’s a core area of your life where you’re extraordinarily vulnerable and we’ve learned to live with that prevailing sin but what we need to do is begin to name it, to examine ourselves and to begin to name what the setting sin is. So, I can tell what mine is but do you want to talk a little bit about yours?

David:   You need somebody who leads.

Karen:   I just assumed you let off here.

David:   Well, I think they change over time.

Karen:   Yeah, that’s probably true although mine has been with me a long time. I just I have to learn to live with it.

David:   I get rid of mine faster.

Karen:   Okay.

David:   I would say that my prevailing sin which is new to me but I’m becoming more and more aware of it. We had a conversation with a friend about trauma and that friend said probably 90% of the people…

Karen:   She’s writing about it. It’s a writer’s group.

David:   Yeah, have trauma in their background and I thought I must be in the 10 % because I have very little trauma in my background. Then I began to think about it more and I went through…

Karen:   I think you were thinking about childhood trauma maybe or I don’t know. Anyway…

David:   She was talking about things like childless sexual abuse and such but then I look back on my life with the death of a son. That’s a traumatic experience and I began to look at my life and I named six or seven of those and I said…

Karen:   It happened since you were adult.

David:   Yeah, I said Karen, you know what? We’ve gone from one trauma to another. Losing your ministry. That’s a huge trauma to go through.

Karen:   Falsely accused in the public.

David:   Saying we were new age and losing in many ways friends, whatever.

Karen:   Our donor base.

David:   Lost income. Yeah, Anyway, having said that, that’s not important right at the moment, but to say in all of that I realized that I have been very careful in my life not to allow those things to happen anymore where you get blindsided, and it has made me a fearful person. And there are times I say, “Lord, I’m not going to move out on that because I know what that’s like when you get clobbered.”

Karen:   You’ll get blasted.

David:   Yeah. And so, fear is something that’s new to me and that is a sin, especially when you’re afraid of what God might ask you to do because I, in my earlier life, was very, I was very prompt to be obedient even though it was a frightening thing because I had to step out in faith in different ways. So, fear, fear is something that I’m wrestling with. In fact, I was confronted by a friend the other day and said, “I think you’re afraid to do this.” And I said, “I am. And if God told you to do it, you would be afraid to do it too.” So yes, that probably is my prevailing sin, but it wouldn’t have been my sin back at the time where I was in…

Karen:   When you were young and eager and a visionary and…

David:   Yeah, God said, “Go into the city. All the churches are leaving. You go in and start a church in that neighborhood with all the churches.”

Karen:   Not only that, make it an interracial church with an interracial staff. That was 45 some years ago.

David:   Yeah. And I did it. We did it. We did it together. It was a wonderful experience. So, fear, yeah, that would be a prevailing sin in my life.

Karen:   Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, I took one of those temperament evaluation tests. A friend made it available to me and asked me to take it in. That helps you see what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. So, my prevailing sin is envy.

David:   Would you, shall we blow it trumpet first? Can I go through?

Karen:   Please don’t.

David:   Okay. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry.

Karen:   Yeah, this is a characteristic sin. I mean, it’s something that has been probably a part of my life, my adult life. And it manifests itself in this way. I don’t want fancy cars. I don’t want a lot of material, expensive clothes. I don’t want, I certainly do not want fame or recognition. We’ve had enough of that, and we’ve suffered the consequences of people knowing who you are and wanting to take off after you and such and such. What I envy. is the fact that people of means, they live high but don’t use their money to work in the fields of the poor and the helpless and the powerless. So, the way it affects me personally is I would like to have more money to be generous. This is a real tricky one and that’s a great thing. That’s a lovely quality but I get resentful when I don’t have enough money to do what I would like to do for other people, even our grandchildren. I mean you know there’s so many wonderful things that go on and I’d like to buy a bunch of tickets and haul the little ones down there and expose my, our older adult grandchildren to the things I’ve seen around the world where we, I’ve walked through those refugee camps and gone into those slums in Africa, and it just changes your whole life. So, this morning there were a couple letters that came through the Quakers or just do they have this a group of Quakers who doing an extraordinary job in Washington, DC lobbying for peace related issues and I’d love to send them a cheque. You know and then there’s a woman I know who teaches, she teaches literacy over the phone by phone, or you know modern technology to those who are literate but want to teach literacy training to those who can’t read. And I’d love to send a big cheque or any kind of cheque to someone like that. So, there’s where my envy comes you know, and I often find myself saying to the Lord “Why do you give money to people who aren’t generous and don’t give money to those of us who are really generous you know big harder than generous.” So that’s how it you know it gets judgmental it gets critical.

David:   Yeah, it has spin-offs. Attachments.

Karen:   Yeah, it has spin-offs. So that’s the thing that I have to watch. And I don’t recognize I’ve slipped into that kind of negativity until I sit myself. She sits herself down and says, “Okay what’s this about, you know”? And then I have to I have to confess that and right it, make it right in my spirit.

David:   Okay so we’re naming right and probably we could say what’s number two on your list Dave but that gets tiresome people listening we’ve given illustration.

Karen:   So, we’re just asking people…

David:   Trying to be vulnerable.

Karen:   People that do the same process you know same process of looking in and saying “What is the besetting sin in my life”?

David:   So, like Sprague in his book writes it’s just good you name it and then that in a sense sets you on the right journey because you say, “That’s a problem and I got to be careful in that area.”

Karen:   Well and I think we ask God to help us with that or we might even ask our friends or our family members to say, “Okay I have a terrible critical spirit. You see it in the way I use my tongue. I am so sorry. Forgive me for the way I… but it sources it’s this critical spirit in my soul, there’s a critical spirit. So, will you pray with me, will you gently remind me when I’m getting critical, will you call me to account”? I mean that can be done with family and friends trusted advisors. So, that’s one of the ways we overcome having a besetting sin.

David:   Yeah, it’s wise to be aware of the tactics of your enemy because the enemy will use that. It will be like the guy on the phone with me.

Karen:   Knowing that you’re a senior, and he’s got your check numbers, he’s got your home phone number.

David:   How in the world did he got my check numbers, I don’t know, and Commonwealth Edison didn’t know either, but he had them, and boy, it was amazing to me.

Karen:   And you would be absolutely befuddled by that attack. That’s not, you don’t work with people like that in your life, you don’t go into a group thinking there’s going to be a deceiver in here among these folk. But that’s the same approach we have to take when the enemy comes against us, and he will. That’s what we’re saying to people, he will come against you, he will come against us, so you want to watch out, beware.

David:   So, you’re working ahead of the game, right? I know that’s going to happen, so I just got another question for you, which is harder to break: a good habit or a bad habit?

Karen:   Oh, well I know the answer, and I know that you know I know the answer, but a good habit is as hard to break as a bad habit.

David:   Isn’t that interesting though?

Karen:   It’s really interesting, isn’t it?

David:   Basically, because you set up a pattern. In fact, when you establish a good habit, say you’re talking about your prevailing sin, and then you begin to establish a good habit in relationship to it, you almost make yourself invincible.

Karen:   Invincible, yeah, right. And one of the ways you can do that is by checking yourself every day, maybe at the end of the day, or the next morning, I do my devotional work in the morning, I have a prayer journal, I’ve kept for 40 years, journals. And you look back on the day before and you say, is there any point in that day where that prevailing sin took over? And I succumb to its temptation.

David:   Hey, succumb again.

Karen:   Blow it again. Oh, I blew it again. God forgive me. Give me strength to recognize it today, so I don’t give into it. That’s how we develop a good habit.

David:   You do it the next morning.

Karen:   Yeah, I do in the morning. Too tired at night.

David:   And you look back on the day before. I kind of do it.

Karen:   You do it all through the day. You have a devotional.

David:   Well, through the day, but then I have, I kind of at the end of the day, I rework my day. And it’s amazing to me, just in the quiet, how the Holy Spirit will speak and say, “Did you realize that you didn’t give that person full attention? You were somewhere else and then you left quicker than you should have. And that person really wanted help. But you basically gave them the message that you were too busy.”

Karen:   Yeah, and your schedule was to do list. It was more important to you than that person’s need.

David:   And now you’re getting really personal. You talk about yourself, and I’ll talk about…

Karen:   I was just, for instance, with all that was. I wasn’t nudging you. Have you ever said that about me? Oh, Karen was here and needed my attention.

David:   I haven’t come to the place where I allow you to go through my day and play the role of the Holy Spirit.

Karen:   Nor should I.

David:   Sometimes you’re helpful. Sometimes God speaks through you. Not all that often, but sometimes He does.

Karen:   Anyway, dear listeners, we have a lot of fun in our marriage. We joke with one another a lot. But what we’d like to say to you is this is a tool that we’re giving you. These tools and these suggestions for you to overcome your besetting sin in combat. The scammer who’s not able to come over the phone or at your door.

David:   Catch you by surprise. Yeah, I was doing really well and then all of a sudden, this crazy interruption came and got me upset through the whole day. That’s what besetting sins are like. It’s kind of like the devil. This guy’s doing pretty well. He’s old number seven.

Karen:   How can I kick him in his wounded spot? I give him a really good kick there and that’s going to throw him off.

David:   Last time I threw him a straight one right down the middle and he really knocked it out of the park. Get him with the knuckleball. Throw it slow and he won’t be ready for that. We’re dealing with an enemy who wants to destroy us.

Karen:   Yeah, we’re laughing but the truth is that.

David:   That’s Peter. Be careful. Watch out for attacks from Satan.

David & Karen:         You’re a great enemy. He prowls around like a hungry roaring lion looking for some victim to tear apart.

David:   That’s him. Yeah, that’s him. So anyway, if we can get people to hear us, it’s saying, “Okay, see if you can come up with what that besetting sin is.” If a person listens to us right now and says, “I got five besetting sins, what do I do”?

Karen:   Start with one. Start with one.

David:   That’s right.

Karen:   Pay down the one account. Like we’re being taught in financial commerce. Pay down one charge card. Then you go on to the next one. So, start with one.

David:   Yeah, and then be glad. You say, “I only got four of them left. Pretty soon I’m only going to have two of them left. And boy, when I am free.”

Karen:   Then I will be indomitable.

David:   Yeah, I will be. Anyway, our desire is not to put guilt on people. Not a dollar. It’s to be helpful. And that’s because Jesus has helped us in so many, many ways. Have a good day, friend. The really, really good day.

Outgo:    You’ve been listening to the Before We Go Podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2020 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.