David:     This past week I asked our 10-year-old granddaughter, Annalise, if she knew what the term chit chat meant. She said she did, so I asked her to define it for it.

Karen:     So, what did she say?

David:     That it was joking around, being kind of funny, not talking seriously about anything.

Karen:     Well, I would say Annalise got it right. What was the end of that conversation?

David:     I’ll try to kind of reconstruct it for you, okay?

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     As a follow-up, I know I asked her what the talk at her school was like, and she said it was mostly chit chat. “Are you good at it?” I asked, and she thought she was. “How good is Papa at chit chat?” I asked her, kind of joking around, being funny. And she said I was okay. Then I questioned Annalise if she knew how to carry on a more meaningful conversation.

Karen:     Let’s remind her listeners she’s 10 years old.

David:     She said she didn’t know how to do that.

Karen:     Okay.

David:     Anyway, I explained to her that one good way maybe to do this was to ask good questions. And she said, “Okay, let’s work on that, okay?” And it was a very meaningful time to her.

Karen:     Let me talk about Annalise just a tad more if you don’t mind. Her daddy died; it’s been nine years ago. She was just a baby; she was six months old. She has an older brother and sister. We live very close to them. We’ve tried to really be active in their lives. And so, one afternoon, this is a little clue into her personality, she came over. And you had gone to the socks game with the rest of the family, and she was staying home. So, she stayed with me. And so, we were watching a Hallmark show on television. Hallmark shows are kind of feel-good shows. They’re formulaic. And I was amazed by her analytical ability. And she said, “You know, they always have blonde haired ladies.” As we went through the show, she gave me a read out on it, which was just, I thought amazing for a 10-year-old child. I mean, it was really, truly analytical as far as the plot line at all. There’s always a feel-good plot line. I’m thinking maybe she talked about this with her mom at some time or another.

David:     It would be that she did.

Karen:     But I was really impressed with that. So, this little kid is not just a little kid. She has thinking capacities that have been developed somehow at a very early age.

David:     I was preparing good questions for this podcast, and I decided that I would ask her some. But immediately I realized they were kind of at a level that was older than where she was. So, I tried to reword them, and I’ll refer to that as well. But I want to go to scripture first of all. I probably should thank Lois Jinxed. She was the youth pastor at our church when I was growing up, because she drilled into us learning the Bible. She was a Moody Bible Institute graduate. And one of those verses I memorized years and years ago, probably about the age of Annalise, was Psalm 19:14. “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable on thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.”

I’m not much of a chitchat person, but I realize that in many ways maybe I am, because you’re in situations where it doesn’t call for anything in depth. I regularly go to the post office. You’re standing in line. You see the person who’s behind the counter. It’s not a time to ask deep questions. I go to the dry cleaners. You know, I go to the bank. I go to the UPS store. It’s kind of like after church. Church is over and people kind of go around, some leave quickly. But the conversations don’t really get into too much depth most of the time, unless somehow you are the individual who changes it and lets it take on a different flavor.

Karen:     Well, and the other thing is among the service workers and all of the cleaners, et cetera, et cetera around us, you have regularly taken in Cheryl’s cookies to give out. And so, you’ve established kind of a recognition with them. They really, really love you.

David:     I also think before I go in, “What am I going to say that takes it out of that realm of just chit chat?” Are you a chit chatter? Do you know how to define chit chat?

Karen:     Well, it’s sort of conversation that is a filler. It’s not substantial. It’s surface and we need chit chat in our lives. Sometimes we’re not altogether.

David:     How are you doing?

Karen:     How are you doing?

David:     I am doing fine. What’s the weather like?

Karen:     Things going good for you today and you know, stuff like that. However, what we have discovered, in our years of ministry, is that when we begin to ask questions of people that are not just on that surface level, they begin to unfold. They tell you who they are. And the more we ask questions, the more we realize people really want to be known in that very substantive kind of way. And this whole process of learning to ask the right questions so that people can open up and talk to you about meaningful things is important.

David:     I was at the post office yesterday, Karen, and I had to buy stamps and I had to mail a package, so I needed to go to the counter. Lo and behold, it’s one of those rare times when there was no line and I had opportunity to talk. So, I tried to open up a conversation with the person who’s there. Her name is Maria. I know all these people’s names. It was amazing to me how quickly she began to open up in terms of where she was in her life. I think I asked her, which started at, “How much longer will you be here, Maria?” She said, “I have six years to go before I retire.”

And what’s then, you know, and then she began to talk about her family, and it became very interesting. And I thought at the time, you know, I could just leave here, but this is the first time really, I’ve had a good conversation with her, and she began to talk about things of the faith.

Karen:     Wow.

David:     And she talked about in her life. She said there were some people who were in her life over a long period of time that the Lord provided for her. And then there are other people who it seemed like he just dropped into her life at a given time to help her move through that period. And then she never saw them again. But she said there are some people who are here for the moments and then some people are here for the long haul.

Karen:     Wow.

David:     It was a very good conversation and I thought there’s much more substance to this person. And it will open up further conversations because I find that a lot of times when people go through difficult times, they will then talk to me because I have talked to them.

Karen:     And they know you’re a minister as well.

David:     Yeah.

Karen:     I remember when I was starting to date, this is before I met you, of course, my love, that I would sit down before the date, and I come up with four questions. In case we, as young people, reach that awkward lull where you don’t know what else to say or you don’t get going in a conversation.

David:     Good for you.

Karen:     And so those became my fallback questions. I don’t remember what they were. They may have been a different one for every young man I went out with. But that was a good lesson for me early in my life to be prepared to ask questions. And we have some fallback questions after all of these years of meeting people and being in the surroundings where there are many strangers and that we have learned.

David:     Yeah, if you had a perfect day.

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     What would be going on that you just said I enjoyed that day so immensely because?

Karen:     Well, and sometimes I’ll ask people who was someone in your past who influenced your life for the good. And they’ll take a little while to think about it because it does take a while to think about that. And then they’ll open up and there’ll be this extraordinary story that comes out of them. And you don’t just know the surface of the person with surface conversation, but because you’re asking more substantive questions, you begin to see who the person is in the deeper level that sometimes doesn’t get revealed in those first two encounters.

David:     And it’s not just asking the question, it’s listening to the answer and being very sensitive as you’re hearing what people are saying. So, you’re thinking that leads to this question. I wonder if it’s stupid. I’ll ask this question.

Karen:     Most people in that process when they ask someone a question or thinking so I can answer the question myself rather than listening to what the person they have asked that question. So that listening process is extraordinarily important. And we know actually intuitively when we’re in a conversation, when someone is really listening to us. There’s eye engagement, there’s attentiveness, there’s leaning in, wanting to hear. And so, there’s this body language that reveals that someone is really listening to us.

David:     I had written questions we could give as illustrations in this podcast. So, when I was talking to Annalise, I thought I will ask her some of these questions to help her get beyond chit chat on occasion. Then I realized the questions were kind of adult, so I had to rephrase them. The adult question was, “Who’s an African American you deeply respect and why.” But that was a little heavy. So, I asked her, “Annalise, who’s someone who’s not white that you think kind of highly of?”

Karen:     Did she have an answer?

David:     She was able to do that, which was really interesting. I find that just having those questions is a huge thing. And again, I agree with you. It’s very important that we learn how to listen.

I was going to go back to scripture again because as a minister, that’s kind of what I’m always doing. And I’m thinking of the difference between Mary and Martha. Martha complaining because her sister wasn’t helping her take care of the meals and everything. And Jesus saying, “Mary has chosen a better way.” He didn’t say what you’re doing is unimportant or not essential. He was just saying, she’s sitting and listening to me, which at the moment is the more important thing.  

Karen:     Well, and he may have picked up on some of Martha’s attitude too, because as someone who exercises hospitality all the time, you do need extra hands sometimes. But it may just have been an attitudinal thing that he picked up with her and addressed that sort of thing with her. Because Martha was a major player even in Jesus’ life, as far as providing food for disciples and stuff like that. So, I don’t think he was chastising. I think he was just cautioning her about an attitude thing.

David:     You know, at the bank, you don’t have a lot of time because there will be a line. So, it’s not every day, but it’s over a period of months and years that you develop a relationship with these people. So, when one of them got sick, you know, and she was not there, I asked about her and listened as people told me what was going on. And when she came back, she said, “I appreciate you having asked about me and how I was doing.”

Karen:     Oh, that was so touching.

David:     These are very meaningful situations. I picked up Annalise’s sister just yesterday, Eliana. She’s 14. She’s the first year of high school. She calls, she had a great big backpack and she said, “It’s pretty heavy. If you could give me a ride, I would really appreciate it.” And so, as I drove there, I thought, “What do I want to ask her?” Because I would like to engage her in conversations so that she knows that grandpa really cares about her. And I felt so good about that conversation when I dropped her off because she said, “I thank you for picking me up Papa and I love you.”

Karen:     We do love the people who really listen to us.

David:     I think that is true.

Karen:     That’s sweet.

David:     Questions. It’s awkward when you first ask questions. In fact, a conversation with another family member who is a doctor. He’s actually has his doctorate and is in practice. And he said, “You know I try to do this but like some people they say why are you asking these dumb questions? There are certain people who you’re not going to win over.”

Karen:     Well, he was talking about trying to ask substantive questions. Can I frame the context of that? We had met with some of your sister’s offspring who of course all adults in Nashville. And your sister was also there. And this couple, our adult grandchild and his wife, had met us there. And there was not a superficial conversation the whole time we were there. But for 24 hours just wonderful sharing, connection. He couldn’t have framed it any better really feeling where one another was coming from and making sure everyone was involved and that the deepest meaning of their lives was shared with one another.

We came away just remarking about that. And then our grandson, who was driving from Nashville to Chicago, and we dropped him and his wife off in Indianapolis to fly home. He said, “How do you do that?” And he talked about other relatives and other sides of the family who you can just have superficial conversations with you trying to ask questions.

David:     That’s why I think of his chit chat, it’s superficial.

Karen:     Superficial conversation. I went home and thought about that and thought well you know there are certain table games that you can buy that have a whole card full of questions. That’s the game. I can’t remember the name of it right now but there are a couple games out there actually like that. Invite your relatives over and say we’re going to play this game this evening. You can get back with a little help from the gaming people.

David:     If we’re invited to play the game, we’re going to know people think we’re chit chatters.

Asking questions is sometimes a good way to get at conversations you might not be able to. Talking about racial things is very hard. But who’s an African American you deeply respect and why? That’s a very revealing question. I think it’s a non-offensive question. But if a person can’t think of anybody, then you know that really, as far as an issue like that, they are relatively uninformed. If I ask you that question who’s an African American, you deeply respect and why?

Karen:     I’ve done a long study in the history of racism in our country. I spent almost two years reading books that really opened that whole process up. I have so much respect for all of them. You can say Martin Luther King, but everyone knows who he is.

David:     John Lewis.

Karen:     That would be another name.

David:     He died recently. He was the one who was so bravely was at the front row when they walked across the bridge at Selma. Then he was beaten, almost killed and then he served so long in the Congress.

Karen:     And he was the man of extraordinary faith. Just an extraordinary person.

David:     Looking back on your life, what’s something that changed who you were for the better? If you could change something about yourself what would that be?

Karen:     Well, I have this tendency to do what we call ramping. I get too much on my schedule and I’m trying to do too much, and I go into top speed.

David:     You’re pretty good at juggling three things. When you do five, you’re no good at all.

Karen:     Yeah, maybe not so much three anymore as I get older. And that sets my whole endocrine system. Everything gets fuzzy on the inside of me. So, I’ve been trying very hard not to do that. And one of the ways I do that is begin the morning in prayer by saying, “Let the day be the day. This day is the Lord’s and Lord what do you want me to get into?”

The danger is I over plan. List about list, list, list all over the place. And so, I’ve just tried to do what came my way instead of thinking of all the things I should be doing and to stop that ramping process. And I think I am doing much better at it actually. At least there’s a change, a learning curve going.

David:     I could follow up on that, but I won’t and not because I don’t agree with you. I think that’s a huge thing you’re processing in your life only because I’m wanting to work through this topic, but it showed how with a simple question I kind of opened you up.

Karen:     Yeah exactly.

David:     I’ll put into a sentence what it is we’re saying. Christians should be characterized by substantive conversation as contrasted to constant chit chat. Chit chat goes on a lot of times Karen because even say after church as you’re starting to leave the sanctuary.

Karen:     Have a good week.

David:     Yeah. Okay it looks like the seasons are changing. It’s starting to get cold again. But all those things that go on and they don’t mean anything. So, you have to figure out how do I change that.

I can do it because I’ve proven to myself over the years. “Tell me what your family’s like. We’re kind of new here.” And so, they do and all of them you’re happy with it. “Well, no” said Jim after church. He said, “I’m concerned about it.” And he talked to me about one of his daughters who’s a way at a university and as far as spiritual things is not doing real well. I said, “What’s your name?” And I wrote it down on a card that I carry in my pocket. I said, “I will pray about her with you. If you want to give me a call and then we’ll talk about it more.” He was very deeply touched by that.

Karen:     One of the things I did early on which is a good suggestion for our listeners is I went through all the gospels, and I wrote in my prayer journal all the questions Jesus asked.

David:     He was pretty good at it.

Karen:     It is a pretty powerful study. And he didn’t feel like he had to give answers all the time. But the most, I believe, what he was thinking was the most important thing is to get this person to consider and think for themselves what the answer to their own question might be. So, I would suggest that people if they’re interested in this and the theology of it is just to go through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John because they’re all a little bit different. And recording Jesus’ life and write down the questions that Jesus asked.

David:     I just went across one of those passages the other day. It’s a good Samaritan. When it’s all over Jesus asked, “Now which one was the neighbor?” And he just kind of left it. But the answer was so hard.

Karen:     But not one that many Jewish people might have landed on because of the tension between the Samaritans and the Jews.

David:     Yeah, he told the story. He just made up the story, but he told it in such a way that he got the listener to process what was going on. Jesus asked a lot of questions. In fact, all through the Old Testament God’s asking questions.

Karen:     Yes, exactly.

David:     The very beginning from Adam. “Where are you guys anyway?”

Karen:     Yeah, wonderful.

David:     So anyway, I wrote some questions out. I have a bigger list that I want to begin to just say okay here’s what they are copy them down as I talked. I’m trying to give people just illustrations and I’m wanting them to take it from there on their own.

Who’s someone you feel profoundly affected your life for the better? A book that influenced you in a major way. Some people don’t read books at all. But some people read a lot of books. Looking back on your life what’s an event that changed who you were for the better? What’s a quality you see in someone that you admire that you would like to characterize you? Who’s a media personality you tend to pay closer attention to because he or she is very careful with his or her words? Could you answer something like that?

Karen:     I can.

David:     Okay for me whenever John Meacham, he’s a prof at Vanderbilt.

Karen:     He’s a historian.

David:     When he talks, he’s very careful in what he says. Would you say the television most people watch is pretty much chit chat? It’s people talking about non-essentials. It’s very definite personnel. A lot of humor and it just goes on and on and on to the place.

Karen:     There’s not much substance to network television.

David:     Chit chat is probably very close to another word which is prattle.

Karen:     Yeah, prattle.

David:     Yeah, and that’s not good. So, you think we’ve gotten anybody to think? I’m going to come up with some questions I can ask people and then it’s a matter of boldness. Question I ask often. Say, I’m on a plane whatever.

Karen:     Strangers.

David:     Yeah, I’m a minister. Are you interested in spiritual things at all?

Karen:     Amazingly, most of them want to talk to you about it. It’s just always.

David:     You almost never get somebody who says no. No, I’m not. And I say well you probably should have sat next to somebody else. It’s too bad.

Karen:     Or you read their body language.

David:     Or you say how come you feel that way? I know some people who are spiritual. They’re very fine people. Whatever and whatever the person says and answer just accept it.

Karen:     Don’t argue.

David:     Don’t argue. You don’t have to lead them to Jesus. In fact, sometimes I say, “Thank you Lord that person not interested one lick because I ask now, I’ve accomplished what I wanted now just let me sleep here on this plane, a little while.”

Anyway, chit chat. Christians should be characterized by substantive conversation as contrasted to constant chit chat. I prayed for somebody the other day. I don’t think you’d have any idea who it was. So, Lord I wish I could, in my relationship with blank, get him past chit chat. Because whenever I attempt I don’t seem to be getting anywhere. And there’s much more to this person than he’s letting other people know. And he’s frustrated by that. So, give me wisdom to know how to open that up in here. And I’m wanting that to be for a lot of people who are listeners.

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