David:     Do you have a bucket list, Karen?

Karen:     Do I have a bucket list? There’s always a bucket list running in my head.

David:     If you actually say wrote out a bucket list for yourself, would it be the same as a before-you-go list? Did you hear me?

Karen:     Well, yeah, I heard you and I’m thinking about how to answer that one.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

Karen:     I think the phrase the bucket list doesn’t sound as serious to me as a before-I-go list. So probably the two are not the same.

David:     My bucket list would include visiting all the Major League ballparks with my son Joel and so far, I think we’ve been to 13 of them. But I’m figuring that’s not even halfway there, and I don’t know if I’ll make it before the end of my life to the rest of them. I probably won’t but the bucket list isn’t that big to me in my mind. But a before-I-go list, that’s something that’s more important. What about you, Karen?

Karen:     Well, I do have a before-I-go list. I feel like the Lord has given me the gift of writing. I’m not claiming that I’m the world’s greatest writer, but it’s something that I feel gifted to do and impelled to do. But there are a thousand other things in our lives, you know. There’s taking care of our home and the garden season has just ended and I’m very involved in that. So, I’m wanting to now as the months roll out before Christmas into the next spring to really focus on my writing. And I have two books that I feel like I need to complete before I go.

David:     Okay, so I’ll go back to mine and then we’ll go to your list.

Karen:     Ok.

David:     Okay. I’d say my list is being brought into focus because we are in a new church now. We’ve been there for about two months. We took a long time visiting all the churches in this area.

Karen:     In a little town of West Chicago, there were 18 churches, and this was the last church we visited, the 18th church. There are some very good churches in West Chicago. And there are some that we don’t know if they’ll be able to last year or two. This one appealed to us, but we can’t say exactly why except we both felt the Lord say to us, this is the one where I want you to go.

David:     Yeah, I had that very strong impression.

Karen:     Both of us did.  Yeah,

David:     Without even talking to one another. I was kind of hoping you would feel the same way I did, and you did. It was interesting and we still feel that way. We are told by the Holy Spirit to the best that we can understand the Spirit’s will that this is where I want you to be. It’s different in that they have three lay pastors. All three of them work full-time jobs.

Karen:     Bi-vocational.

David:     And it’s not large. I would say I counted last time.

Karen:     I did too.

David:     How many did you come up with?

Karen:     30.

David:     There were 30 adults. There were kids in other rooms and how many of those I don’t know. So, it’s a very small congregation, but there’s something beautiful about it. On my bucket list, Karen, I’ve always wanted to be involved in a church which knew the overwhelming sense of the presence of the Lord as they came together. And I have this sense that this church can experience that. It’s certainly not there yet. I mean, if the Lord were to be present in a given church over an extended period of time, there would be crowds of people wanting to meet with him. And that’s not where it is, but it has that strange potential. So, I’ve said, “I don’t want to mess up what is there, but I want to walk very closely with the Lord because we don’t have a whole lot of more times to look for other churches and say, where do we fit?” I am not using the word revival. Now, the reason I’m not using that word is because sometimes people see that in a way different than the way I see it. They see it as repentance. They see it as a great sense of conviction. They see it as great crowds of people rushing to see what’s going on as though this is the new curio or whatever.

Basically, I’m thinking of a church that experiences the overwhelming sense of the presence of the Lord, and that would be matters such as unconditional love. And I think that church has every potential, and there is a long way down that road from all we can tell, as we invite different people to come over and meet with us for lunch or so on. This is a church that has the potential to be very involved in terms of its prayer life, saying, we can’t pull this off apart from the Lord being present here. I see that as being something where people are eager in terms of serving the Lord because they sense His presence. Where evangelism, that’s not where it is, but the ministers, this lay team, have just finished a six-week series on evangelism, how this needs to mark our church.

Karen:     And they did well with it. I mean, they’re not great orators, but their thinking process is excellent. And evangelism is a topic that’s very close to your heart, because I think you do have the spiritual gift of evangelism. You have, through our marriage. I’ve seen many people that you’ve led to the Lord. They’ve come for dinner, and then you open up conversations, and there’ll be that moment where they want to be Christ’s follower. Extraordinary, really.

David:     If people sense the Lord’s presence in an unusual way, holiness will mark them. Evangelism will also mark them. So that all these palpable, I kind of like that word I’ve been using it more lately, palpable means that it’s recognizable or observable. You can quantify it.

Karen:     Not just theory.

David:     Yeah. So, these palpable signs of the Lord’s presence.  I think that there’s every possibility, those can grow very strongly in the days ahead. So, I’m feeling very good about this, and I’m saying, “I think the Lord has directed us, and this is a part of what I want to have as a great gift from the Lord during these days when I’m still alive.”

Karen:     Well, in a place where you can really do the intercessory work to pray for that, because it doesn’t have any areas of overt conflict. You don’t feel that in this body. They know one another, and they love one another.

David:     Yeah, it’s not there yet. If the Lord puts his hand on that place, there will be all kinds of new people who are coming in, and there will be spiritual warfare. One of the signs of revival or of a presence of the Lord is that you get the enemy rushing in, because he wants to stop that as quickly as he can. So yeah, I’m feeling very good about this, and I’m saying thank you Lord that even the potential is there for us being involved in something truly significant in the days that are ahead.

Karen:     So just to summarize, that would be something that would be on your Before I Go list, to be a part of a church that really knew the presence of the Lord in a way that was remarkable.

David:     It’s bigger than a bucket list.

Karen:     Yeah, bigger than a bucket list.

David:     Yeah, if I get to the ballparks with my son, if I don’t make it all alive, I’ll still be happy.

Karen:     That’s been a fun thing for you and Joel to do.

David:     I wrote a sentence for myself. If you want to change it, you can, but I said, before we go, I would like to be involved in a congregation that experiences an authentic movement of the Holy Spirit. And it seems like the Lord has given me that desire and that possibility in a very real way. Let’s talk about you though, okay?

Karen:     Okay, so before I go, I have these two books that I really feel the Lord has put in my heart that I want to finish.

David:     This is just not a goal that you have.

Karen:     No, one is the book on listening groups. Now, I’ve said this before on the podcast. I’ve been very involved in learning what that listening process is. I started to launch these, I don’t know, 10 years ago, and I’ve led over 70 listening groups. I just found my file on listening groups, so I have to get that in my head exactly what that is again. And as we began to do these listening groups, which were very simple, three or four people would attend maybe once a week for two months, however long they wanted to go.

David:     Sometimes by phone, usually I would see them in our living room.

Karen:     Yeah, that was before the COVID thing began. We did do some listening groups over Zoom. And I began to sense just this unusual environment.

David:     It’s like a holy place.

Karen:     Yeah, I couldn’t really get my mind around it or words to express it. So, I have a friend who is a counselor. She’s a psychological counselor who’s been trained in group work and does her own group therapy with her clients.

So, I said, “This is just such an unusual thing.” And she said, “Well, let me come and I’ll come not as an observer, I’ll come as an attendee,” which was perfect because then that doesn’t skew the group having someone sit there who doesn’t say anything. And after the first meeting she attended and everyone had left, she said, “Karen, do you know how long it took for that group to get into safety?”

Well, now that’s not a terminology that I was familiar with using as far as group was concerned.

David:     So, they were safe to be open?

Karen:     Safe to be with one another, safe to share, safe to reveal, and trusting that the group would not offend in any way. And small groups can be very damaging to people if they’re not run well. I mean, sometimes you have a talker, talker, talker, talker who dominates or someone who’s critical and extends.

David:     Somebody who exposes secrets.

Karen:     Yeah, exposes secrets that they may be feeling uncomfortable or other people’s secrets.

And so, when she talked about that, then she said, “That group entered into safety in the first session.”

David:     Yeah, that’s unusual.

Karen:     It was very unusual. So, I began to look at it and then we have a friend, Roger Veith, who is a brain surgeon and consequently a neuroscientist because of all of that work. And I was starting with the listening groups at that time, talking with him about this remarkable environment. And he said, “Do you know, Karen, what happens when someone feels heard and understood?” And those are the key words, not just listened to, but heard and understood. And I said, “No, I don’t know what happens. I know that’s good.” And he said, “Well, the neurology of the body is created to absolutely respond to that. People are warm. There’s a feeling of safety.”

So, as I began to work with groups more, I would say to them, “I want you to think of one time in your background when you were really listened to.” And in the questioning, I did with them, I realized that many people did not feel listened to and don’t have anyone present in their life they feel can listen to. And it was just amazing to me.

So, when we began to describe that person, if they had someone in their past, a teacher and aunt, it could be parents.

David:     Yeah, a pastor.

Karen:     A pastor who listened to them, really listened to them and they felt understood there is this neurological response. It’s a warmth. I feel like someone’s put a blanket around me and is unfolding me. I feel held. I feel loved. Now, it’s that extraordinary.

David:     So, they’re thinking back on a memory.

Karen:     It’s a memory, but the physical response to that memory is as real today when they’re talking about it as it was in the past. So, I began to really do a lot of work on that and that’s the book that I’m writing about. It’s finished. It is in pieces though. I’ve written it over a period of 10 years. I have to gather all those pieces together and organize them.

And there’s one more book that I really want to get out. It’s called Uncommon Goodness, and it deals with, this is a phrase that comes from the sociology world, it deals with positive deviants.

David:     Positive deviants, somebody who deviates from the norm.

Karen:     From the rest of culture. Yeah, from the norm and, they’re positive.

David:     So, there are negative deviants.

Karen:     There are, yes, but these are positive deviants.

David:     Yeah, I’m a positive deviant.

Karen:     You are a positive deviant.

David:     And so are you.

Karen:     Yeah. But I ran into those around the world as I was working on. I had two boards that were international in their scope that I was a board member of a director. And I traveled around the world under the auspices of one of those groups and also with Food for the Hungry. There were two trips. And I just began to see these people who are working in these unknown places. They don’t care about fame. They don’t care about money. All they care about is changing the lives through the giving of the gospel or through education or health education, it can be that, to the people who have none of those things all around the world, which are multitude.

David:     And so, they’re positive deviants.

Karen:     Positive. I was so impressed with them. So privileged to even get to know them. And I got to watch their work. It wasn’t like I was sitting in a boardroom somewhere hearing about it. But I was watching their work on the field. It’s just so humbling.

David:     How far are you in that book?

Karen:     That one needs work. I have pieces on it, but I’m going to have to pull it.

David:     So, how many years does the Lord have to give you?

Karen:     I have at least two years of writing that I have to pull together. And I feel strongly about both of them. I feel that they’re both books the Lord has given me extraordinary exposure for the very purpose of writing these books, for the purpose of doing something that he needs to have me do so he can disseminate those ideas more broadly than just one little woman here in West Chicago.

David:     This is where you are saying, pray for me.

Karen:     Yeah, I do need prayer.

David:     Let me ask you a question. I have a feeling, and I’m wondering whether you agree with me that there are people who are listening to us who have this same nudge. In fact, it’s not just the nudge of the Holy Spirit. It’s kind of a pushing of the Holy Spirit saying, “I want you to get this done before you go.”

Karen:     And it doesn’t have to be in the writing fields at all. I mean, I think there are projects that people we call ordinary people. Now, they’re really not ordinary at all. But…

David:     They’re different, though.

Karen:     They’re different. They don’t have fame and glamour and that sort of stuff. The Lord is pushing them to do, and it could be to establish some sort of local outreach, a food pantry. I don’t know what those things are, but I think that we need to pray for one another, even though we don’t know one another’s names. Because these are good works that God wants done through these good people. And we need to pray for them.

David:     And he will partner with them. He’s saying, I’m going to walk with you through this.

Karen:     Yes, but I think that we need to be constant in our prayers for them and for that good work in the world, even though sometimes we don’t know the specifics. And our prayer work is the thing that empowers them to do the thing God has laid on their heart.

David:     So, if someone listening could take that sentence, I started with and say, “Before I go, I would like…” And it’s more than, I guess, it’s more than “I would like.” It’s more than a bucket list. I feel like. It’s more than saying I want to travel to Ireland before I go.

Karen:     And that’s great too. But yeah.

David:     Yeah, but that’s a little bit more self-centered. And this is a God-centered thing that he is saying to me, I want you to accomplish this before you go. Would you pray right now, Karen?

Karen:     Yeah.

David:     Because you can feel what these people are experiencing. And they may not have anyone to pray for them right away, but they can start looking for those supporters.

Karen:     And I think sometimes the task seems so huge that God seems to be giving to us that we don’t feel like we’re big enough to do it.

David:     Or futile.

Karen:     Yeah. Yeah.

David:     This is so big. What difference will it make?

Karen:     Right.

David:     Yeah. So.

Karen:     Father, I do pray for anyone listening to us who has had a before I go idea pressed against their heart. And they can’t shake it off. It keeps coming back. And then they forget about it. Then it comes back again. And those are the nudges, I believe, that really come from that divine inner Holy Spirit. And we need to pay attention to them. So, I pray that if there is anyone who’s listening to us today, that you will empower them. You will help them believe that really this is a message from God. You will bring into their lives folk who also want to walk along beside them as this task begins to form and is launched and finds its place in the world. And that they will know that not only as this is something that they are supposed to do, that they are obedient in trying to do it, and that they bring you enormous pleasure because of your obedience to that inner nudge. So, we hold them up before you today, that they’ll be able to do these things before they go, as we are hoping to be able to conclude the things you’ve put on our hearts before we go. We pray this in your holy and wonderful name, Lord Jesus. Amen.

David:     Holy, wonderful, and powerful, and life-changing, and all that which we are not. Let that infuse each of us to accomplish what God wants to accomplish through us. I’m believing that for myself. I’m believing it for you. And I’m believing it for those who have sensed this nudging or this shoving of the Holy Spirit. And for those who don’t have that, I’m praying that somehow, they would experience that because it’s a marvelous privilege, the sense that this is what God is saying, I would like to have you help me with before you come to be with me for eternity. So, it’s quite exciting, isn’t it?

Karen:     It is exciting.

David:     Yeah, very much so.

Outro:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. That’s all-lower-case letters. hosts@beforewego.show.

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