David:     The celebration of Advent was not a part of my upbringing. Christmas? That was different. Christmas was huge in our home and in the church as well. Christmas was the best time of the whole year, and I knew it was about the birth of Jesus, the Son of God.

Karen:     Well, Christmas was that way in my home. My father was a music minister.

David:     Busy time.

Karen:     Busy, busy time.

David:     Bigger even than your birthday.

Intro:      Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.

David:     Looking back on my life, I really don’t know when I first heard about Advent. Probably it’s when I was in college. College was a lot bigger than my high school events and more students from different backgrounds were there. But my church world was still quite restricted. Possibly, Karen, it was when I joined my uncle John Jess on the Chapel of the Air broadcast and I saw what was happening because listeners from all over the country were writing in and responding to the program, but they were from churches I’d never even heard of. It was a fascinating growing time for me.

Karen:     Yeah, and you began to work with pastors from all those different churches. So, you were exposed in deep and meaningful ways with a variety of people from different churches.

David:     But I almost needed an interpreter because when Christmas came, I knew what that was all about. But then ministers would say things like, “Advent.” What in the world is Advent? And there was a learning process because I didn’t want to admit that I had no idea what they were talking about. So, it was a period of years before I began to understand, really, when people said Advent, they meant what?

Karen:     They meant the season that leads up to Christmas.

David:     And the word that I think of always is coming.

Karen:     Waiting is another word that I associate with it. We started to attend an excellent Episcopal church and that was a church that followed the church calendar of the year. I didn’t even know there was a church calendar for the whole year, so you had different seasons. And I think that was probably the first place where I really began to hear the word Advent and then wonder about it and catch the meaning of it some.

David:     Okay, and when I heard Advent meant coming, I didn’t know that it meant not only the coming the first time of Jesus, but the coming of the second time. I’d heard about the second coming of Jesus, all my upbringing. There was a huge emphasis in our church, but it didn’t relate to Christmas at all. That makes sense?

Karen:     Yeah, it’s interesting because I think even with that exposure, it’s only been lately that we’ve begun to really say, okay, well, let’s practice Advent and then get into it more. And it’s supposed to also be a time for getting your soul ready, not just making plans on how you’re going to spend Christmas or what you’re going to do, but it’s a time of self-examination and listening and doing self-correction if you find that you need to do that.

David:     Comprehending these massive themes. Christmas is very commercial in this land. It kind of takes over as a season and you’re so involved just in trying to keep up with what’s going on and buying gifts for everyone, the travel and all that’s involved. As you almost miss the meaning of the season. So, Advent gives more time. Instead of everything being packed into one day and the morning of Christmas, you know, the kids running down the stairs and the excitement and the people coming over and fixing meals and all that, it’s stretched over a longer period of time. It’s the four Sundays prior to Christmas Day.

Karen:     Okay, so that means the fourth Sunday this year is the day before Christmas, right? Okay.

David:     Christmas is a Monday this year.

Karen:     We’ve spent more time this year trying to be more intentional about Advent in our homes. So, I bought an Advent wreath, put it on the coffee table in front of the fireplace, and we have four candles and then we have the candle in the middle which is the Christmas candle. That’s lit on Christmas Day. So, we lit our first candle and all of a sudden, the doorbell rang.

David:     I wasn’t sure what we’d do after we lit that first candle, but we never had a chance to think about it that much because yes, you’re exactly right. There was someone at the front door.

Karen:     Right. So, I opened the door, and it was the postal delivery person. And she had a package and then a regular pile of mail. And so, you don’t get a package at the door without opening it. I wanted listeners to understand we’re sitting down. We’ve lit our first Advent candle on the wreath on the coffee table. I opened it up and it was Living With Hope, A scientist Looks at Advent and Christmas by John Polkinghorne.

David:     Well, that’s pretty fascinating. He’s a wonderful writer.

Karen:     Oh, he’s an extraordinary, extraordinary man. I had been introduced to him with his first book. The theme of it was that science and Christian faith should not have conflict because they’re both seeking for the same thing and that’s true.

David:     Not being sure what we were going to do after we lit the first candle, it was kind of interesting that this light, Lord, said, here you need Polkinghorn’s book.

Karen:     Talk about a God thing. Okay, this is on the back cover copy.

John Polkinghorne is past president and now fellow of Queens College Cambridge. A former professor of mathematical physics at Cambridge. He is a priest in the Church of England and canon theologian of Liverpool. He was knighted in 1997 and won a Templeton Prize in 2002.

David:     Oh, my goodness.

Karen:     He is the author of many books, including The God of Hope and The End of the World. And this one is Living with Hope.

David:     Yeah, and this one is Advent Devotionals. I’ve read a lot of them already. I wouldn’t say he’s dense.

Karen:     He’s a thinking person, though. He presents truth in such a way that you do pause and absorb it. I think is kind of what I do with it.

David:     So, I’ve read a lot of these devotionals already. It’s just kind of read one and you think, it’s like when you make your banana bread, I’ll take one piece, I’ll take another piece, I’ll have another one, thank you.

Karen:     What happened to that loaf I just made?

David:     It’s gone now. Totally gone. But I still have some of these devotionals to read, but we need help in terms of saying, “How do we celebrate Advent, the coming of Christ? Not only his first coming, but his second coming, which is kind of different celebrating the second coming during the Christmas season.”

Karen:     Yeah, I have never done that before. But that’s really what Advent is supposed to help us do. To look and be prepared for the Christmas season, but also to look beyond that to the second coming of Christ.

David:     How are you making this different this year? Because instead of one Sunday, and everything’s packed into that one Sunday, we have four Sundays leading up to Christmas Sunday. Okay, how are you doing?

Karen:     Well, I have a couple books that I have found that emphasize the seasons of the church calendar. And I would recommend to people that if they’re wanting to make Advent a meaningful season that makes Christmas even more meaningful, and it marries that to the second coming of Christ, then you want to go online and look for books that deal with the Advent season. And there are plenty of them around, so there’s lots of help.

David:     Okay, I would say that one of the things I did differently, I hinted at last podcast, I said that this was new to me thinking at Christmas of the second coming of Jesus. But I’m working at it. I was trying to find a symbol that would bring my mind to this. Because it’s not normal for me to think about the return of Jesus at Christmas. But I think it fits. It’s the second Advent. I told the story last week. If I tell it in just very briefly, to remind people, I was saying, “Lord, I’d like to have something that would keep this second coming in my mind all through this season.” I noticed that a friend had driven up in the driveway. I said, “Come on in, I’m wrestling with something, and I explained the problem.” And he said, “I can tell you what something would be of help.” He said, “Crown heads of the states in Europe, if they’re Christian, on their crown at the top of it, there is a blue sapphire, and that’s a reminder to the monarch that He is under the authority of God.”

It was interesting. So, I thought, well, I don’t think I can buy a sapphire. But I can get something blue that’s simple and small. I don’t wear a crown. That is not normally. But I bought a whole package. There were 10 of them of Christmas bulbs. It’s a very beautiful blue color. And there were 10, which gave me more than enough reminder. I thought I’ll put these around. And that will be the reminder to me of my relationship to the Lord during this season. And so, I put one in the car. That’s been most meaningful. I found that I had to put in the cup holder or rolls all around the car. But even when I get in the car now, and I’ve been in the car probably a dozen times, I see that and oh yeah, Jesus is coming again. This is the season of Advent. So, that’s just one simple thing. What’s one simple thing that you’re working with?

Karen:     Well, we have a son who gave us an Alexa, which is little device where you say, “Alexa, What’s the temperature going to be?”

David:     It’s like having another family member that you can’t see. Very smart.

Karen:     A very informed one. And so, it’s not just that question. I ask a lot of questions of Alexa. And I said to Alexa, “Alexa, find me some country Christmas music.” And she came up with a whole bunch of things that were wonderful. I sat in the living room for almost an hour just listening to her play all the time.

David:     So, you were saying, okay, you’ll have Christmas music throughout the house. That’s one way you’re going to keep in mind what it’s all about.

Karen:     And then I did a search online too. There was actually a, it was sort of a historical treatment on television about Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, the American poet, who was at the time of his life the most popular poet in America. And there was a story about him writing, I heard the bells on Christmas day. And I would recommend people pick that up if they can pull it down and watch it. It was very moving.

“I heard the bells on Christmas day, their old familiar carols play. And wild and sweet, the words repeat of peace on earth, good will to men.”

Then he comes to a point of reckoning. “And in despair, I bowed my head. There is no peace on earth, I said. For hate is strong and mocks the song. Of peace on earth, good will to men.”

And I read this right as the conflict in Israel was breaking out, in tears. Now, it’s so awful. What a mess. You talk a picture of extreme evil. You’ve got it right there. And that the Israeli people would suffer again. And the Palestinians have always had this displacement. I mean, it’s just an unsettling place. It’s a picture of what he’s saying. Enjoin the whole world. There is no peace on earth, I said, for hate is strong and mocks the song. And then the bells peal, he goes on.

“Then peeled the bells more loud and deep. God is not dead, nor death he sleep. The wrong shall fail, the right prevail with peace on earth, good will to men.” It’s gorgeous.

David:     Yeah, so you got Christmas music going throughout the house. And that’s been a helpful reminder to you in the busyness of the season.

Karen:     Just one more. I won’t quote all the stanzas. “O come, O come, Emmanuel and ransom captive Israel; that mourns and lonely exile here. Until the Son of God appear. O come thou dayspring, come into your spirits by thine advent here. Disperse the gloomy clouds of night and death’s dark shadows put to flight. O come thou rod of Jesse. Free thine own from Satan’s tyranny. From depths of hell thy people save and give them victory or the grave. Rejoice, rejoice, Emmanuel shall come to thee, O Israel.”

David:     Okay, so what you’re working with as the daughter of a music director, you’re making sure that the music of Christmas is a part of the home at this time. We’re kind of beginners at all this in some ways.

Karen:     Well, it hasn’t been part of our family tradition or past one either. We’ve known about it for a few years, but we’re really intentionally working at practicing at that.

David:     Yeah, here’s what I’m trying to put into a sentence, okay? This is not a biblically-based sentence, but it’s a sentence of where the Mains’s are struggling to make the Christmas season even more meaningful this year.

A deeply meaningful Christmas or advent season requires intentionality on behalf of the participants.

Karen:      Say it again.

David:     A deeply meaningful Christmas or advent season requires intentionality on behalf of the participants. It means that you don’t just have it happen. And it’s not a simple thing. You don’t just light a candle and then say, “Okay, now that’s done, what’s the next job?” But it means that you’re working at keeping in your mind what the season is all about. And I’m finding that this added emphasis of not only just the birth of the savior, but the return of the savior, which is the second advent. That’s very meaningful to me, especially with all of the clamor and all of the bitter talk and all of the infighting.

Karen:     In our own country.

David:     Yeah, it’s unbelievable. I think, you know, what in the world has happened? This is strange. But I’m trying to say we will have that peace in our home. It won’t just happen. It won’t just be us crossing our fingers and saying, we’re not being nice at the end. We’re working at it. We believe that as we work at it, God will be even more available to us in our thoughts and become clearer. And it will be, again, a better understanding of the incredible profound season we are going through.

Karen:     It’d be interesting, David, is if the listeners who listen to the podcast would take some time to write to us about the ways they have worked intentionally to make Christmas a meaningful season. And I think some of them probably have a lot of ideas and have been practicing this for much longer than we have.

David:     I think just the fact that many people don’t think of it as Christmas, they think of it as advent. Probably they’re ahead of us in a lot of ways because it’s more focused and I’m glad for that. Yeah, but we’re learners. How old are you again?

Karen:     I’m 81-ish.

David:     Yeah, not quite, almost. Yeah, still a learner.

Karen:      And how old are you, Mr. Mains?

David:      I’m considerably beyond you. I’m 582.

Dean:      500 years old, David? I think you’re 87. So, you’ve got a way to go.

David:      I was a little bit ambitious.

Dean:      You talked about John Polkinghorne’s book. He’s a fascinating individual. He was born in 1930 and died in 2021 at the age of 90. It’s interesting that Polkinghorne wrote 34 books, 26 of which dealt with the subject of science and religion. So, he’s a fascinating author that those who listen to our podcast ought to know about and perhaps explore some of the wonderful books that he wrote.

And as you said, Karen, we encourage those who are listening to the podcast to write to us and share with us some of the things that they’re doing to make the season of advent and the time of Christmas or Christmastide very intentional.

Outgo:     You’ve been listening to the Before We Go podcast. And if you would like to write to us, please send us an email at the following address, hosts@beforewego.show. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please remember to rate, review, and share on whatever platform you listen. This podcast is copyright 2023 by Mainstay Ministries, Post Office Box 30, Wheaton, Illinois 60187.