
May 11, 2022
Episode #145
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Because the church consists of individuals who are, in turn, influenced by their own personal sins and by the sins of the culture, the church in America finds itself afflicted by sin. David and Karen Mains identify certain sins that the church needs to deal with in order to maintain its vitality.
Episode Transcript
David: When I was younger there was always a Wednesday night prayer service in the church. And I would attend those on occasion. I usually didn’t think they were very interesting. A lot of times the church prayed, and it stayed as a large group. And it ended up a lot of times praying for the physical ills of the people. But there was a meeting and the people prayed.
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David: When our four kids were little and we took them on trips in the car, quite often we used the travel time to play what we call the “What’s Bad About, What’s Good About” game.
Karen: I remember those times. And they actually involved a lot of laughter. And I don’t recall any tears even when we were talking about it. They all would contribute to what’s bad about Dad or, you know, whoever we were talking about. So, we must have been doing something right, something relatively good in this game.
Intro: Welcome to the Before We Go Podcast featuring Dr. David Mains and his wife, noted author Karen Mains. Here’s David and Karen Mains.
David: The game usually started with “What’s Bad About, What’s Good About Daddy”.
Karen: Sacrificial lamb.
David: Everyone participated in that, including you.
Karen: I got a chance. I’m going to take it. Well, and let me give you an example of some of the things that I can remember the children would say. They’d say, “Dad works too much,” which has been your fatal flaw with call-isms. They noticed it as well. But when you turn that evaluation into what’s good about, everyone feels good about having heard all the good things about them. So, hearing the bad things doesn’t seem to be harmful at all.
David: The younger kids would all be very vocal and excited about saying the bad things about Mom and Dad. And then their turn would come. One quote I remember from the kids over there was, “uh oh.”
Karen: But you know, that was a good game because it helped them have a handle on self-evaluation, even though we did it as a family. And I think that’s one of the great gifts that God has given us: is to be able to evaluate ourselves. So that’s what we’re going to do this morning. We’re going to talk about what’s bad about the church in America.
David: Yeah, and last time we talked about what’s bad about America. And we were trying to be gracious and kind just like part of the family, which it is. This time we’re going to talk about the church. Sins we see in terms of the church. And this is important because I don’t think ministers talk that much about sins.
Karen: Not in the way or to the quantity or with the emphasis that they used to do when you and I were growing up in very conservative churches. I don’t know if it’s because we have psychological understanding that has made us more sophisticated about why people behave in bad ways. But we certainly do see evidence in our culture just on our news. These regular shootings and violence, something’s wrong and why isn’t the church influencing that so those things do not happen. I mean that’s just a big example.
David: Maybe my thinking but my sense is that ministers avoid talking about sin. It’s kind of like these are hot button topics. Let’s just leave them alone. Ok? Are we going to talk about these in some special order? The worst of the sins of the church?
Karen: No, this is just off the top of our head. And again, this is your opinion and my opinion. Other people may have other kinds of thoughts. So, this list is just sort of our listeners to help them begin thinking about it. Doing evaluation.
David: And we’re going to keep our voices down the whole time. We’re not going to shout. I would say Karen to begin with, I would talk about the sin of prayerlessness.
Karen: Yeah, that’s a huge one. I think people would agree with that.
David: When I was younger there was always a Wednesday night prayer service in the church. And I would attend those on occasion. I usually didn’t think they were very interesting. A lot of times the church prayed, and it stayed as a large group. And it ended up a lot of times praying for the physical ills of the people. But there was a meeting and the people prayed.
Karen: And you went for a Wednesday night prayer meeting.
David: One of the things I remember about the church when I look back on those days when I was younger is there was a pastoral prayer, and it wasn’t just something off the cuff. But the pastor prayed for his people. And that was interesting. There’s not time for that in a lot of churches now. I don’t know what’s happened.
Karen: Worship service.
David: I very seldom hear a pastoral prayer in churches anymore.
Karen: So, we would say that one of the sins of our churches is prayerlessness. And I’ve quoted this before in a previous podcast. The Pew Forum did extensive studies on do people pray? If so, how and where and when? And they discovered that many people who respond to these questionnaires do pray. They have a prayer life that is very solo, very private. But only 2% of them, only 2% pray with others. So, what we’ve sort of gotten on a hobby horse here is saying that people need to start forming prayer cells where you’re praying with friends or neighbors or work acquaintances and do it on a regular basis and build a prayer base. And in another podcast, we’ve said this changes the people who are part of that prayer base in ways perhaps they didn’t anticipate for the better.
David: Very good ways.
Karen: Yes.
David: Let me read something Karen. It takes a little bit longer than normal, reading a quote. But this is from Benjamin Franklin. He spoke the following words.
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe the happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time in the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God governs in the affairs of men.
And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it possible that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that…’ except the Lord, build a house, they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this. And I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. We shall be divided by our little partial local interests, our projects will be confused, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hear after from this unfortunate instance despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
I therefore beg to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven and its blessing on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed the business. And that one or more of the clergies of this city be requested to officiate in that service.”
Karen: Wow.
David: Well, that’s a very strong, strong statement.
Karen: Oh, my goodness. Who would have thought?
David: I would say that that’s the kind of words that we need to hear in the church once again. He’s talking government. And we talked about the nation last time we got together in the podcast. But those are very stirring words and that’s the kind of words, not how come we aren’t doing this and finger pointing, but in a positive sense and from a person with real stature saying, “We need to make a correction here. We are not the praying church. We want ourselves to be and need to be.”
Karen: And it’s powerful. Another area I think I would name is Sabbath breaking.
David: And now we’re really sounding blue-nosed.
Karen: Yeah, now we’re really stepping on toes here. I wrote a book called Making Sunday Special.
David: Yes.
Karen: Which looked at how Christians in America need to restore a Sabbath-keeping understanding. I have a shift with all the books that I researched and bought and read and underlined. And there are a good 20 books there. So, there’s lots of material out on restoring the Sabbath principle. But the one that hit me this morning, as I was sort of going through my highlights, I highlight everything I read so that if I need to find something for writing or for podcasting, I can find it easier. And the book by Tilden Edwards is called Sabbath Time. And he does a lovely thing in emphasizing that our practice of Sabbath should be play.
David: So that’s an essential ingredient.
Karen: That’s one of the ways to evaluate whether we have had a really holy Sabbath. I agree with him. I think the sad thing is that so many of us have established a Sabbath practice. It’s been dour and grim and serious, and children didn’t go out to play. And he was sort of glad that’s over when it was over.
But I think if we would look at how we keep Sabbath today, and that’s generally in the Jewish pattern from Friday through Saturday evening. And in the Protestant, Catholic pattern, it would be from Saturday evening to Sunday evening, that 24 hours. Well, we need to ask ourselves, “Did we play? Did we laugh? Did we enjoy?” And that I think will put keeping the Sabbath holy into a very different dynamic.
David: Fellowship is a part of play.
Karen: But we don’t think of God as a God who enjoys.
David: I’m just being careful that people don’t hear us saying like, “Did you go to the ballgame on Sunday?”
Karen: No, not that. It’s, you do set yourself aside from the normal events that would happen during the week. And it’s a day we dedicate to rest and to restore and to meet God in a very uninterrupted and special way. But then add this other element of can it be a day of play? Can it be a day of laughter? And I think we’ll come closer to what God’s desire was according to this theologian. I agree with him for giving us that day of rest.
David: The pattern is that man is not just a worker. He works six days a week, but is also a worshipper. But you’re saying worship has kind of a heavy feel to it in a sense, so that there is also the time in the Jewish Sabbath of meeting for meals and enjoying one another’s company.
Karen: Getting croquet in the backyard, you know, with your little grandchildren, you know. Things that you plan into the day that will bring a socialization that is also holy. But we don’t think of holiness in that way, and Tilden Edwards says that we really need to.
David: Let’s talk about another one, okay?
In the Old Testament, the sermons as to sin from the prophets over and over related to the problem of idolatry. Having other gods, building shrines to other gods. And the prophets are merciless in terms of saying, “You dare not do that.”
It comes up over and over again. I don’t think that the American church is idolatrous in the sense that they’re building shrines, worshiping false gods, that kind of a thing that you’d think of when you think about the Old Testament scriptures. But it is true that you can say, “Where is my heart?” by asking yourself simple questions, like “When I have time just to be alone and think, where does my mind go all the time?
In conversations, what are people talking about? And my feeling is that there are other gods all through the church that get an awful lot of attention. And it’s not the soul worship or the intent of worshiping that goes on as much. And there’s more idolatry, I guess I would say, in the church than we are willing to admit.
Karen: One of the ways to determine that is to say to yourself, “How is it I spend my time? In times past in my life, I’ve actually kept a log of what did I do from 9 to 10, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m through the day and do it for a week. That will reveal to you how you spend your time. I think many of us in this American culture are going to be very amazed by how much time we spend in front of our screens.
David: You’re talking about phones?
Karen: I’m talking about phones. I’m talking about computers. I’m talking about television. Any of the ways that we get information or news or have relaxation. And I think that’s where the error is. We spend so much time focused on these things. A lot of times we don’t need to be scanning our cell phones because you’re just picking up what’s coming up over Facebook or whatever. But it robs us of that time spent thinking about who God is and how we can serve Him in the world.
David: Let’s get another one. We’re going to run out of time before very long. I would say that one of the sins of the church is still racism. It’s still a massive problem in this country. It’s almost impossible for us not to think that way because of the time we’ve spent in terms of inner-city work. I would say that in my mind I’ve come a long way, but I still am racist in a lot of my thinking. How do you think?
Karen: This is a really difficult topic as white people to get in touch with because many of us do not have a negative reaction to the people of color in our country. So, we say to ourselves as a woman said to me, “I’m not racist.” She actually said, “This is not a racist country.”
On my desk we’re in my study where we record, there are three piles of books. There are 22 books in that pile and they’re all in racism.
For people who are raised in a predominantly majority culture, such as we are, that’s changing in our country. We need to know what this is all about. So, we need to make a deliberate study of it. One of the books I’m rereading is James Cohn. He was a black theologian. He died this year, brilliant man, but he has written The Cross and the Lynching Tree.
David: That’s a pretty powerful book.
Karen: It’s powerful. You can’t read it without weeping. He raises the concept historically and not too much in our historical past of lynching how it was a part of our culture. It was inbred into much of our American culture. But he makes the comparison to how we need to think of this as the way Christ was lifted up in the wilderness. The wilderness of the world on the cross, that many of these lynchings, isn’t there a parallel construct here?
Now that’s not any way I would ever think normally or naturally because I’m not black. But this is a man who was a superb theologian. Because of his race, he was able to look at our culture in a totally different way. So, as I said, I have got 22 books as I begin to look at. Am I racist in a way I don’t want to be and don’t understand? That begin to really teach me on how systemic racism was in the American culture.
I know it’s easy to react negatively to that if you haven’t done this kind of work because a lot of us don’t want to be racist. And yet we do not understand how insidious and systematic racism really has been in the American culture.
David: If you’re normally talking to fellow white people, you’re going to see yourself as having come a long way. You and I, we were a part of a black church for six years, not as pastor, but as a participant. The only white people in the church. But we learned so much and I still have a long way to go. I would say that I am a recovering racist.
Karen: Yeah, I think that’s really fair.
David: Probably till the day I die, I will still say, in my mind as honest as I can be, I am a recovering racist. I’m not what I used to be, but I’m not as far along as I’d like to be. I think you have to hear it from the very way you’re explaining it is that there’s such a long way to go. And this country has a long way to go, but also the church in this country has a long way to go.
Karen: The first time I really began to be aware of it was when we were in the inner city and there was what was called redlining. And certain neighborhoods would be redlined by the governments of those communities or by the local magistrates, whatever they were. And in those red lines behind that red line or the other side of the red line, however you want to look at it, blacks were not allowed to move or buy into that area. That’s a very simple example of systemic racism that was built into the real estate agencies. Anything that deals with the purchase in buying a property or moving into rentals. So, all of a sudden that reality was probably the first time I really understood there was that kind of racism that I was not in touch with at all.
David: Let’s get to one more. I have several more on the list. We’ll honor the time and not go way over what we normally do. I’m struggling here because I don’t think it’s a sin, but I would say that the American church is in a lot of ways delusional. The reason I say that is because I think the average person who’s a believer in this land has the sense that the church is still strong in America. I’ve been to many, many churches. I would say as I watch what is happening around the country, the church is frail, it’s gray-haired, it’s weak, and it’s to the point where it could die.
Karen: Now that’s not every church, obviously. It’s not.
David: We’re talking about the church in America.
Karen: But I don’t think we understand any of us how many churches are closing.
David: They’re closing and how many ministers are leaving that profession.
Karen: There’s a statistic that talks about how many pastors are resigning, disillusioned, and going on into other professions. So, this is a huge problem nationwide. We’ve been visiting all the little churches in our town of West Chicago, and some of them are vibrant, but there are many that you think this one is not going to last over a year.
David: I would say, Karen, if you look at, say, where Europe is as a continent, the church is not strong in Europe. We are maybe a generation or two to being at that very place in terms of this land, that more and more the church is irrelevant.
And what happened? It’s dying out. That’s where America is now. I see the culture influencing the church in America far more than the church influences the culture. And if you say, can we sustain this for long? I don’t think so.
It’s not as though good things aren’t happening. But to think that the church is as strong as it was, say, when I was a kid, it’s not. It is a long way from there. And the trajectory is that it’s going to be more and more weak. And in time, at an accelerated pace, the church just stops being relevant.
I see that delusion where you think you’re strong and then you realize you’re not. I see that as a real problem, whether it’s a sin, I don’t know. But I think that the church has to have this mindset that there needs to be a moving of the Holy Spirit.
Karen: Yeah, and that comes from, we go right back to Benjamin Franklin, that comes from concerted and deliberate and intentional and regular times of prayer with one another.
David: The time has come for America’s clergy to be more vocal about specific sins of the church.
Karen: And then to commit themselves to using their late people to help them solve those problems. Because the answer is in the laity and to energize them and free them to come up with what’s not only bad about the church, but what can be good about the church again?
David: That would be on what’s good about side. We’ve played the game in terms of what’s bad about. We haven’t covered everything that I felt was on the list. But how do we get the church to come to the what’s good about? Maybe we can handle that sometime in the future.
Karen: Okay.
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